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tallgirl
I wish this was a hypothetical situation, but unfortunately the specifics of this story are all too real.

Stacy has been married to Bob for a few years. Stacy enjoys rough sex play sometimes, and Bob has been growing more willing to indulge her in that lately. He has begun "taking what he wants when he wants it," as she puts it, a fact that has both excited her and made their sex life much more spontaneous. The one rule of thumb they have always used is that if Stacy wants Bob to stop, she has to say the word "stop."

One evening, as they are putting away laundry, Stacy begins intentionally doing things to annoy Bob. He's been doing some annoying things himself lately, getting on her nerves, so she really is half mad at him. At the same time, she's also feeling playful. The things she does are relatively minor - turning off the lights in the room before he's ready, bumping into him, etc. But when he reacts, she taunts him, saying he "doesn't have the balls" to do anything about it. She's smiling and acting playful as she says this to him, but has told him she's feeling half mad and doesn't know what she wants. This goes on for several minutes.

When the laundry is finished and Stacy begins getting ready for bed, Bob comes around and blocks her way. He tells her he's going to show her his balls. She laughs, but he pushes her down onto the bed. She tries to push him off, to get away, but he yanks off her panties anyway. She continues to try to fight him, pushing him away hard, saying "no" repeatedly, but eventually just stops struggling and cries quietly while he forces himself on her. She is too shocked by what is happening to her to actually say the word "stop."

When it's over and she is able to talk again, Stacy tells Bob that what just happened was not what she wanted. He's upset himself, but tells her that she's at least as much at fault as he is, because she first taunted him then failed to say "stop." He also points out that now she knows what will happen if she pushes him too far.

So here's the questions: What is this called? Is it rape? Some other form of domestic violence? Sex play gone wrong? Who's at fault? Should Bob necessarily have stopped when she began crying? Is Stacy to blame for not being able to say "stop" when it really mattered? Should Stacy chalk it up to sex gone wrong and try to move on, or is there a larger issue here?

Thanks for your feedback - please know that I'll pass your responses on to the real Stacy, and know she'll appreciate it.
prettynpink
This is so difficult to judge. It depends, I think, on the relationship.

If this is a loving relationship that got out of hand because he thought that they were roll playing (I've cried during rough sex before and told my Mr. to ignore it) and she didnt communicate strongly enough for him to recognize the difference between roll play no and NO THIS IS NOT OKAY, I think they need to recognize it as sex gone wrong, step back from rough play until more rules have been established. If the safe word is stop and she didnt say it when she needed it, then rough play needs to be on the shelf until there is more trust and confidence. Has a similar play scene been used before safely? If so, perhaps in his mind it was similar and was cool then so is okay now.

If this is not the case, in my mind, this is rape. It doesnt matter that they are married. If she said no, and he continued.
pepper
it's so sad when novices get into 'play' and don't read up first. a safe word is the FIRST order of business, before this kind of thing happens. beyond that, even mild spanking can result in internal damage if it's done incorrectly. reading up is advisable.

some research and counselling are in order imo. sexuality is tricky enough without adding resentment and genuine fear into the mix.

this part " He also points out that now she knows what will happen if she pushes him too far.", well, i hope that's guilt and defensiveness talking. otherwise, wow with the irresponsible threats. That shit's abusive. using fear during role playing and actually Living in fear... a whole 'nuther ball game.
culturehandy
I agree, there must be a code word. Tallgirl, in addition to the responses here, there is a thread in Let's Talk About Sex that discusses Bondage, it's The Fun With Floggers thread. While it is about enjoyment from bondage, issues surrounding safety, and code words, etc are discussed in there.

The thing about SM play, is that the top and bottom have to have an understanding about what the other party wants and most importantly boundaries. There has to be discussion before hand. With that said, no does mean no. However, when you are role playing, no may be part of the "game". I would suggest that the couple pick up some literature and see what happens. If they are unable to get over this, perhaps counselling, if they feel that they cannot over come this particular event.

In terms of pushing him too far, is this part of the role or is it a genuine threat? If it is a thread, and he doesn't stop, I'd call it rape. If it is part of the role and the game, however, I'd be inclined to disagree. It may be part of getting them excited, and the bottom getting "punishment".


Mr Pugs
This example is the main reason I have hang ups about rough play. I'm a big guy and am strong. If I want to hold you down, I can. I would never want this to happen to LMP. Personally, I have a hard enough time reading LMP's feelings when she's sure of what she wants, let alone when she doesn't know what she wants. From a male point of view, given my history and the story, I would have done exactly what Bob did. I would have been plotting my "revenge" from the moment LMP started "acting up". She does this now. She'll get lippy, talk back, mock me, smack me all in an attempt to get me to spank her, but when the time comes for the spanking it's all no, no, no, trying to fight me off, crying, etc. After the spanking, I'll hold her and comfort her, and I'll usually ask if everything is o.k., and it is. I can see how this would transpose using rough sex instead of the spanking, but I still have that fear of going over the line or doing it when she really didn't want it. It's a tough situation. Does Bob usually act loving towards Stacy? Does he show any other abusive behavior? I wouldn't think an abuser would start here, it would have to build up with other forms of abuse first. I hope it was just a horrible misunderstanding.
LoveMyPugs
prettynpink is so right. it would depend on the relationship. I have given Mr. Pug my consent to do what he pleases within good judgement. Even now after months and months of play he holds back a bit. It bothers me at times but then again I know he is a big guy and is afraid of letting himself cross a line that would upset me and/or him and/or hurt our relationship.

I read once that the safeword should never be "stop" or "no" because they are too commonly used in rough play. When Mr. Pug is spanking me I say "No" and "Stop" and "Please don't" repeatedly. I cry and squirm to get away at times. Other times I laugh and giggle. It depends on our mood and the situation. I think a safeword should stick out and be something off the wall. Our safe word is pickle.

I have issues with safewords. I have one but I've never used it. Mr. Pug has spanked me hard with a belt and it has really hurt. Part of me wants to say my safeword and another part of me doesn't. That's part of the play FOR ME. I think if he hit me say on my tailbone or hard enough that I lost my breath or something I might scream "PICKLE" if I could. I guess if you couldn't talk you could have a "tap out" sign like snapping your fingers, smacking the bed, clapping or something of the sort. Shit what if you are tied up and gagged. Kinda makes me think Mr. Pug and I should institute something like that to be on the safe side.

If the story is exactly like you said and he doesn't have an abusive history then yes I'd say chaulk it up to a bad sexual experience and put the rough play on hold until there is a better understanding of each others desires.

pepper - like you I'm not sure what the part about him saying "she knows what will happen if she pushes him to far" bit is all about. that kinda scares me.

ch - thanks for suggesting the fun with floggers thread. we do talk about safewords quite a bit in there. i wish gt and phobia were in here to offer some advice. they are both very educated on the matter. more so then me. Mr. Pug and I really only deal in the dominant/submissive mental aspect like being given instructions to follow. sitting next to him on the floor instead of next to him on the couch. laying over the ottoman naked presenting myself to him. we also do the spanking thing quite a bit. i think girltrouble and phobia have tried other stuff on the bondage side. i find myself reading their past posts over again just to further educate myself.

Again that last part about pushing him too far just freaks me out. But like you said ch, it could still be part of the role in his mind. Mr. Pug and I live more of a 24/7 kind of thing and if I get smart with him monday he might not punish me until thursday. i might be in a totally different mood then. but like i said i gave him consent to do what he pleases so he'll punish me when he gets around to it.

that safeword thing is very important. i was always sort of on the fence about it but now after reading this situation i know it's there for a good reason. gt has always stressed the importance of a safeword and reading her posts about it made mr. pug and i decided to set one up not thinking we'd ever use it. Safewords are like a condom i guess, rather have it and not need it then need it and not have it right?!?!

My other thing is that if I was crying and screaming for Mr. Pug to stop during SEX (not a spanking) I'm pretty sure he'd stop on comand. He likes to see me enjoying myself and i don't think crying and repeatedly saying no would come off as enjoyment. i've cried during sex before but it's after a really intense orgasm and i'm not yelling no and pushing him off. i'm saying, "no, don't stop." or "stop give me a moment" or "ease up a bit your hurting me". I think there would come a time during the episode where he'd look into my eyes and see me upset and ask me if I'm okay.

Tallgirl - I'd suggest the kink get put aside for awhile and new boundries and safeword get discussed. I think this is something that can happen in ANY couple dabbling or full blown into bdsm. it's just one of those freak situations where there was a blip in communication and somebody thought the wrong think and shit got fucked up and someone got upset and things need to get put on hold for a bit and yeah... really makes you think about it all doesn't it.

I'm sure your friend is very upset inside and I hope she is okay. I feel for her and for him if it honestly was just a miss communication. Tell her to come on to bust and talk to the flogging busties. Maybe we can help them both through it.

Added:

This is an interesting article on safewords. I didn't realize (being the sub) that this is what happens to me. When Mr. Pug and I are playing rough I have a few times thought about using my safeword but then don't because I want to please him. However, I have trust in him that he isn't going to loose control and will watch me closely to see when enough is enough. Still, it's definantly something to read up about. Think I will read about it more myself.
pepper
LMP, when you are immobile it's a good thing for your partner to check in with how you're doing often. i mean step totally out of play character, check your bonds, ask "can you feel this?" "are you cold?" "are you ok?" etc. my partner did this for me and far from taking us out of the moment i felt immensely cared for, cherished and safe (while tied up like a pretty little birthday package and utterly, utterly helpless.) it can still be a good thing to have a physical sign as your partner really, really has to be on the ball, keep a very high level of awareness and exercise supreme control when you are that helpless. it can be pretty intimidating for the top, the bottom has is so easy in that situation.
another thing, i have never used my safe word either. if you are thinking about whether to use it or not you generally won't. i mean, if i needed to use it it would be out of my mouth without thinking about it i'm sure. i do like it really rough though. i've cried and yelled stop and no during sex but NOT my safe word. i really don't want to use it, i know i can take it even when i think i can't.

the thing about that comment, and about playing without reading up a bit and talking about it is that the boundaries are not clear at all and no agreement whatsoever has been negotiated. often couples start negotiations AFTER something unpleasant has happened. in a way that's a good gauge of what isn't acceptable but really, this discussion should take place Beforehand. a lot of people don't know where to start with this though and don't think to research it, they just get in a mood and decide to try something new in the moment. understandable but dangerous.

the thing about that comment is that it illustrates for me how people at first don't get that the bottom is actually the one in control. he or she ultimately sets the boundaries and determines what is acceptable, desirable, and what is too far. the big, strong, rough man-handling spanker is NOT the one with the final say, everything is vetoable by the sub, the boundaries and, most especially, the safe word HAVE to respected, that isn't a joke. engaging in play with either party not in line with that can be very, very dangerous. it can lead to serious damage, physical and otherwise, injury and even death. playing rough isn't a joke.

the thing about that comment is it reveals to me a man drunk on shame and power and in danger of alienating his partner while he's trying to give her what she wants. he hears "be rough with me" and wants to deliver but has no context for it. he knows he screwed up and is trying to cover his ass because he feels vulnerable and very uncomfortable with what he's done, probably especially because she asked for it and he tried but didn't get it right.

eta so says the mommy who hasn't had ANY kind of sex all year and no intention to any time soon. ha! sleep.gif
girltrouble
i'd call it rape. plain and simple. the main thing that separates bdsm from abuse is consent.

this is another reason that i tell people if you play:
1)have a safe word
2)use it.

as i have said before, the first domme i had was abusive, i had a safe word, but i thought being a good sub meant not using it. wrong. my second domme broke me of the habit real quick. your safe word is NOT JUST FOR YOU. it is just as much for your dom/me. they need to know that you are looking out for your own safety too. that you won't be playing brave. really, do you want to end up in an emergency room with internal bleeding or a broken thing-a-ma-jig, cos saying your safe word wasn't "hot." do you see how stupid that is? this thing we do is DANGEROUS-- POSSIBLY DEADLY. you should be comfortable using your safe word, it lets your dom/me understand you and your body better, s/he knows where to do things more delicately, things to watch out for, and the signs that you're hitting your limit, or you are under stress. communication is key, and if you are withholding all of your information, you aren't doing yourself any favors.

then there is a matter of trust. you really don't want to be caught with a dom/me who has too much ego to stop when you use it, or one who doesn't care for your safety.

when daddy and i play i beg, plead, cry and sob, i say no, stop, please, and every varriation thereof, but she likes pushing me to my limit, she litterally won't stop until i say my safe word. using my safe word doesn't make it any less hot, infact she likes that she can take me up to that line.

i have to say, it disturbs me just as much to hear someone say that they've never used their safeword as it does to hear they don't have one. i've seen people take unbelievable punishment, but they always knew when to call their limit. no shame in that.
LoveMyPugs
I read a bit last night online about safewords. Granted it wasn't a lot but I got the vibe that safewords are something that varries from couple to couple. I can see both sides. Like pepper said, I have one but Mr. Pug is very in tuned with me during all our play and I've never had to use it. Like her i know i can take it even when i think i can't.

GT - from my understanding their safeword was "stop" (not a great one IMO) but either way she didn't say stop. She said "No". So from your example of begging, pleading, crying and sobbing and saying, no, and please then he did the right thing right? If it was wrong then she should have said her safeword. HOWEVER!!! If he was in control and paying attention to her and not just angry that she challenged his manhood by bratting out then he would have seen in her eyes that she was detached from the scene and things need to stop. Like pepper said about stopping occasionally and checking on your sub to see if things are progressing the way both of you want.

Something just went wrong here. I think rape is just too harsh but hey it wasn't me laying there getting fucked when i didn't want to be. This is just a mess. For me it's hard to say he rapped her. Please don't be upset with me but there is a small part of me that thinks she kinda had it coming. I don't brat out unless I'm prepared for what's to come. Sometimes I subconciously brat out just to get what's coming. I guess our relationship is different.

I do think it's important to talk about all this stuff before you even begin having rough play. Mr. Pug and I talked about it many times before we even started getting rough.

As far as Mr. Pug pushing me to the point of using my safeword, that scares me. I think that would be too intense for both of us. IMO, using your safeword is the end all THIS IS BAD AND IT NEEDS TO STOP RIGHT NOW!!! Like i said before I think safewords are a couple to couple preference. GT I understand your stance on it also because you were abused by a former dom. Your reasons for always having one and using it often are understandable.

Although not exactly how I would say it, 'looking' does make a few good points.

QUOTE
The safe word would be virtually impossible for her to just forget.


I thought, before I did some reading last night, that the safeword would be pretty impossible to forget but then I read that the sub and or dom can slip into this subspace and not "be there" in the scene anymore. I can totally see this happening to a couple and things getting out of control.

QUOTE
She's more than asking for it.


I do think she asked for it. She was bratting out. She challenged him then was upset when he rose to the occasion. Did he take it too far? I'm not sure. Maybe. It's a touchy situation.

QUOTE
More likely she's lying and trying to make him feel guilty.
Make him feel guilty so that he owes her something to "make up for it".
Later she can suggest that he buy her something expensive to make up for it.


As far as her lying and trying to guilt him into making up to her. I can see that. Some women are manipulating that way. However, he should have been watching her more closely.

QUOTE
She's lucky their rough play didn't involve knives or guns.


They are both lucky that it was just sex and not knife play or something else.

QUOTE
It's called the Story of Stupid Stacy
But tell her that if she does a repeat performance, Bob might not fall for the same trick twice.


I disagree that this is "the Story of Stupid Stacy". I think they both just weren't on the same page and things went wrong. I think they might have just both learned something from the experience. 1) she needs to understand that bratting out and challenging him will most likely lead to some intense play and he needs to remember that even though she challenged him it's just part of the play and he needs to maintain control over himself. 2) remember the safeword and I wouldn't pick something like "no" or "stop" In their case I would do what GT said about him pushing her to the point of using it so that they can establish some serious boundries. 3) communicate before, during and after 4) i think the most important one is just watch one another and both of you must remain in some sort of concious control. for her to stay with it and use her safeword if needed and for him to stay with it and watch how the scene is progressing for the both of them, especially if she is in a helpless position.
roseviolet
As I understand it, Stacy and Bob have been married for years. However, they have only recently started to engage in rough sexual play. There's a BIG BIG difference.

TallGirl, something similar happened to me with an old partner a number of years ago. I froze up & for some reason I couldn't speak & couldn't tell him to stop. I don't know why, but that's what happened (note: I was very young & inexperienced, as was he). I was very upset about it afterwards because it felt like rape to me, however I knew in my soul that my partner hadn't meant to rape me. I talked with him about it and agreed that it was a big fuck up, and neither one of us was totally to blame. However, I was still very hesitant to be intimate with him for many weeks. We had to work through it & build up trust again.

As any married couple should know, communication is key! Bob and Stacey need to sit down and talk openly about this. They need to forgive themselves and eachother. And as so many have said, they need a much better safe word - something unusual that you'd never use in ordinary conversation like "zebra". With a little time & effort, they can work through this. Best of luck to both of them!
culturehandy
This is why your safe word needs to be something that has nothing to do with sex. Such as orange, pink banana, rump roast. Whatever.

I agree that the top should have been more in tune to his bottoms discomfort. But stop does mean stop. Thing is, if you are playing the role and saying stop, how does your partner know that you actually want them to stop?

The way I'm interpeting this is that by putting Bob down and attacking his manhood, this was part of the game, and she was getting "punishment" as such? I may be wrong, but this is my interpretation of things. I have read and reread the original post.

In any sort of scene, if things are uncomfortable, you must stop. A good top should not let things progress to this point.

Thing is, when people are inexperienced things can progress to a point where psychological harm can be done. Heck, this can happen no matter what level of experience. There will always be someone with more experience than you. I agree with RV, that this couple needs to talk, and I said before, maybe conselling would be beneficial. I also recommend that if Stacy and Bob want to continue with SM, they should take a class or seminar about this. The people who run the Blue and Black Balls would be able to supply them with some good resources.
ananke
I'm really uncomfortable with 'you pissed me off, so I'll fuck you while you cry and say no'.
LoveMyPugs
I have heard of having two safewords like yellow for when things are getting a bit intense and red for when things need to stop. this might be a good idea for some people don't you think?

Not to make jokes but I need to have some fun with the smilies

sad.gif CARROT

unsure.gif ONION

huh.gif CELERY

blink.gif POTATOES

ohmy.gif RUMP ROAST

mad.gif BEEF FUCKING STEW ALREADY

added:

ananke - yeah i agree. it's not supposed to be like that. mr. pug might be annoyed with me but never pissed off and if he is he certainly doesn't want to have sex with me.
pepper
pugs, having yellow light, red light safe words is a terrific idea. if i ever play again i will probably implement that in duscussion before hand.

gt, i never had to use my safe word, never. my partner was VERY observant, very careful with me, and never pushed me too far. just far enough, heh. he bottemed with a very experienced domme and was an extremely conscientious top. the one time we switched he was a horrible, evil heinously bratty bottom, omg. but i'm getting off topic here.

looking i'm not sure what's happening in your post. either you misread the topic starter or you're projecting something here. the rough play is new in this relationship and it seems very clear to me that the two of them have nearly no idea what they're doing and how to go about it. sounds to me as though they have a pretty good relationship if she trusts him enough to be rough with her and he trusts her enough to believe she really wants it and trusts himself enough to try giving it to her. they just made a mistake that needs attention before it turns into something even uglier.

i can't believe anyone would use the word "stop" as their safe word, and i have a pretty hard time believing that she "forgot" to say stop. i mean, i can see forgetting a safe word in a moment of extreme panic or freezing up or whatever but saying stop is as instincitve as saying no in my mind. i'd have to make a supreme effort to NOT say stop! especially when i'm really loving it.

and i agree. if i ever genuinely pissed my partner off he'd deliberately torture me, fucking was reserved for when i was really, really good and deserved it.

LoveMyPugs
QUOTE(pepper @ Oct 18 2007, 10:40 AM) *
the one time we switched he was a horrible, evil heinously bratty bottom, omg. but i'm getting off topic here.


laugh.gif

QUOTE
they just made a mistake that needs attention before it turns into something even uglier.


yeah i think this is the bottom line. they both need to just take a giant leap back and start fresh by educating themselves first.

QUOTE
i can't believe anyone would use the word "stop" as their safe word, and i have a pretty hard time believing that she "forgot" to say stop. i mean, i can see forgetting a safe word in a moment of extreme panic or freezing up or whatever but saying stop is as instincitve as saying no in my mind. i'd have to make a supreme effort to NOT say stop! especially when i'm really loving it.


sometimes i'm saying stop before we've even started. stop = terrible safeword

QUOTE
and i agree. if i ever genuinely pissed my partner off he'd deliberately torture me, fucking was reserved for when i was really, really good and deserved it.


yes for Mr. Pug and I, if I'm bratty an orgasm is the last thing I get. The punishment I got last night was for giving him the finger and getting smart with him on Monday. Later on in the evening he told me that I have been a good girl most of the time so we had sex and he rocked me with a mind blowing orgasm.

I want to ask a question. Hypothetical situation here but say the female in the relationship has been raped or abused in the past and she is with her man (not the abuser) now and during sex she has flashbacks and withdrawls and becomes scared and wants things to stop. At what point is it rape if he can't stop. I mean I know he can at anytime pull out and if "blueballs" is an issue he can certainly finish himself off then tend to her. What would happen if he was in mid orgasm and she freaked out and wanted him to stop and he's still spasming and unable to move. Is that rape?
girltrouble
honestly, i found looking's whole response to be nothing short of revolting. there is, in my book, no excuse. there is no such thing as "deserved it." period. no wiggle room, and no, pugs, my begging pleading etc is not the same thing, as daddy and i know what my safe word is, but further, daddy checks in with me in scene. as candy said.

i don't find it at all unusual, or out of the realm of the possible that she could forget her safe word even if it is stop. finding your trust violated by someone that you trust can fuck with your head, as rosev attested too, and that is the main reason i say USE YOUR DAMN SAFE WORD. you don't want to find yourself in that situation, and lord knows when you are high as a fucking kite on endorphines you can forget your name. so you want to be comfortable using that word, just as you want to know how to use a flogger or a whip, or a humbler, or whatever you play with before you ever do a scene. the first time you use that safe word should not be when your life is in danger, or your trust is violated. there is a reason that i push this so often. it annoys me to be dismissed because my first domme was abusive. i was under the egotistical assumption that safe words were nice but rarely used too. it wasn't until my second, way more experienced domme that i came to realize, that is not. to the contrary. it is a tool to be used. one thing my second domme impressed on me is that you MUST, MUST know how to call your limit, it is CRUCIAL that you are comfortable using that safe word. not in theory, but in practice. and while i am happy that you have a good dom, pepper, but i had to learn the hard way, use that safe word.


QUOTE
LMPUGS:
I want to ask a question. Hypothetical situation here but say the female in the relationship has been raped or abused in the past and she is with her man (not the abuser) now and during sex she has flashbacks and withdrawls and becomes scared and wants things to stop. At what point is it rape if he can't stop. I mean I know he can at anytime pull out and if "blueballs" is an issue he can certainly finish himself off then tend to her. What would happen if he was in mid orgasm and she freaked out and wanted him to stop and he's still spasming and unable to move. Is that rape?
"blueballs" is bullshit. this is an old wives tale guys used to get a girl to give up her virginity. there is no such animal. the guy can stop anytime he pleases. period. no ifs, ands or buts. even if he is just about to cum. and if there was EVER a guy who did what you describe to me, ie. needing to finish himself off before dealing with my having a trama/flashback/whatever, he would find himself kicked out of my place so fast he'd have permenent asphault road rash on his ass after he landed. i would tell him what he did wrong, but i would never play with him again. that is the height of selfishness.

and it is rape the second that consent is withdrawn. period.

culture's post was bang on. but as i said, how do you know when its play and when it's not? that's why you use your safe word.
my safe word is something that could be used in the type of play daddy and i do. it's "uncle." now, that is pretty much the same as saying top or i give up, but in all my begging, pleading and all i do (and anyone who's seen me beg i do it with my heart and soul,-- my second domme said she had never seen a sub who begged like i do. she said it gave her chills, and i know daddy would agree), all the same, "uncle" is the one word reserved for stopping play immediately. daddy knows the difference because we are familliar with every varriation on how i could use that word.
culturehandy
GT, I agree. I mean, someone deserving what they got? Looking, my question for you is, would you "deserve" to get raped if you say you got a flat tire on the way back from the bar, while wearing, for example, a mini skirt?

Furthermore, play is not about giving someone what they deserve. Play is exactly that. Play. The scene should not go so far as to cause psychological harm. That is not was SM play is about.

My code word, for example, is pink banana. How often does that come up during sex. My top, while we are both new to this, stopped as the scene was getting started and reminded me of the word and told me not to be afraid to use it. I told him, that he, as a top, can stop as well if anything that occurs does not make him feel comfortable or goes beyond his current boundaries.
ananke
I think there's a physical response during orgasm that is hard to control (once the marital unit was coming on my chest - he miscalculated both volume and force and it ended up going over the mountain of boob onto my face - up my nose, into my eyes, everywhere - he was mortified and I was hysterical because he went from 'orgasmface - argh-face' five or six times before her could regain control over the come flying everywhere.

But finishing off? Fuck no, no way, get fucked.

I think the point is that he showed no remorse, no horror. It was 'well, you were bratty'. That's immensely disturbing.
pepper
oh shit ananke, *laughing*. up the nose has happened to me too, oh, the horror!
sheffield_steel
It wasn't clear from the original post whether or not Stacy had ever used her safe word before that evening. I'm assuming that she didn't. Perhaps this is partly why she wasn't able to do so, when she needed to. Practice may not always make perfect, but lack of it can be dangerous.

My interpretation of this is that both of them have something to learn, as both were partly responsible for what happened. The main problem, as I see it, was Bob's anger. He is responsible for letting it get the better of him, to the extent that he couldn't see - or didn't let himself see - that she really did not want what was happening. And needless to say, she is responsible for provoking him in such a way that it looked like the usual game (or a newer, stronger, more exciting version of it).

If they can discuss what went wrong in terms of both of them being responsible, good for them. When the games end, they need to be able to communicate as equals.
LoveMyPugs
QUOTE(girltrouble @ Oct 18 2007, 07:24 PM) *
there is, in my book, no excuse. there is no such thing as "deserved it." period.


GT - calm down please. You sound so pissed and defensive. As far as the "deserving it" aspect, I guess what I meant is what I was talking about with Mr. Pugs and I. When I brat out I deserve a punishment and am usually out to get one. I think this is what Stacey originally had in mind when she was challenging him. However, when he took over though I totally agree that he should have been checking in with her. I'm not arguing that point with you at all.

QUOTE
i don't find it at all unusual, or out of the realm of the possible that she could forget her safe word even if it is stop. finding your trust violated by someone that you trust can fuck with your head, as rosev attested too


I agree and understand that this can happen when things go wrong. Again I'm not arguing with you. Although I do think that if I could speak "stop" and "no" would be the first words out of my mouth if things went wrong.

QUOTE
and that is the main reason i say USE YOUR DAMN SAFE WORD. you don't want to find yourself in that situation, and lord knows when you are high as a fucking kite on endorphines you can forget your name. so you want to be comfortable using that word, just as you want to know how to use a flogger or a whip, or a humbler, or whatever you play with before you ever do a scene. the first time you use that safe word should not be when your life is in danger, or your trust is violated. there is a reason that i push this so often.


I think being pushed to use your safeword on a regular basis is a couple to couple preference GT. I don't think that people who use them are wrong. I just think like pepper does. That if the couple is checking in with one another throughout the scene that is good enough for some people.

QUOTE
it annoys me to be dismissed because my first domme was abusive. i was under the egotistical assumption that safe words were nice but rarely used too. it wasn't until my second, way more experienced domme that i came to realize, that is not. to the contrary. it is a tool to be used.


Damnit I was not dismissing you. I think you are being a bit sensitive on this one. The abuse factor is nothing to dismiss. If it was then I wouldn't have listened to one word you had to say in the Fun with Floggers thread. Why do you always think I'm dismissing you? I respect you and always take what you say under consideration because you have more experience with BDSM. However, I don't agree that every sub involved in BDSM should be regularly taken to their limit just to practice using their safeword. I think this is a personal preference.

QUOTE
one thing my second domme impressed on me is that you MUST, MUST know how to call your limit, it is CRUCIAL that you are comfortable using that safe word. not in theory, but in practice.


I don't want Mr. Pug pushing me to my limit like that. That's not how we want scenes to go with us. When he spanks me I cry my eyes out and him looking me in the eyes often thoughout the session and him knowing me so well and knowing when to stop makes me feel safe. I think I would have a pretty high threashhold and for him to push me to my limit of using my safeword would scare me. Does that make sense? Neither of us wants things that intense.

QUOTE(looking @ Oct 18 2007, 09:42 PM) *
Not rape. In my opinion, "if he can't stop" and if she were a consensual participant of the act up to that point in time, then it wouldn't be classified as rape. Not even sexual assault or abuse, aggravated or otherwise. There would be no coercion, threat, force, drugs, abduction, kidnapping, or any other relevant aspects of rape. However, the length of time during which he really and truly "can't stop" is so short that it renders the hypothetical question to mootness.
(On the other hand, it's interesting to note that even in "real" cases of rape nowadays, physical resistance is rarely formally required to legally demonstrate nonconsent.)
Hypothetically, if she suffers from rape trauma syndrome or post-traumatic stress disorder, therapy may be helpful. Such therapy usually consists of supportive and cognitive-behavioral therapies in conjunction with a combination of medication -- under the supervision of a 'non-hypothetical' real specialist.


This is what I was asking about.
pepper
looking, of course you're welcome here. you're thoughts are provacative, nearly always a good thing during disucssions here.

may i suggest though that you ease up a bit with the formatting? all the quotes, bold and italics make it quite difficult to read your post. it's a little bit of too much of a good thing.

cheerio all!
roseviolet
Parody? Satirical? Lampoonery?!?! Please.
Looking, you are obviously very new to "the internets" & posting on forums, so let me give you a little advice.
Satire does NOT translate well in print. We cannot hear your tone of voice. We cannot see you wink or roll your eyes. So when we read what you post, we are strongly inclined to take you at your word & that you honestly believe every word you type unless you let us know otherwise within your post.
So.
Until you get the hang of this, I STRONGLY urge you to avoid satire. Type what you honestly think ... especially concerning a topic as sensitive as this one.

Now. Back to the topic at hand ...


I just wanted to thank my sweetie, Sheff, for addressing some other points I meant to post earlier. Ditto to everything he said! smile.gif

As for LMP's hypothetical question ... I talked with Sheff about this. In his personal experience, he has always been able to pull out, even during orgasm. However, we both understand that, hypothetically, there could be a chance that some men may freeze up - just as some women do. It's highly unlikely, but I guess it may be possible.
culturehandy
RV I agree.
ananke
I think my post about orgasm wasn't as cohesive as I would have liked - prior to the actual orgasm, you're still in control. Even during orgasm. As I've often said to complete dickwads - if you could pull out and run if the cops came/parents busted you/whatever, then you can do the same for 'no' or 'stop'.

Also these two aren't engaged in BDSM or 'play' - they're idiots. Both of them. But he fucked her while she cried because he was angry. That's so many levels of wrong. Sex should not be punishment.
venetia
I've never met a man who became mysteriously paralysed during orgasm, thank goodness, but if I did, I think it would be always Girl On Top from then on, and absolutely no quickie sex outdoors or in the bath, in case he was stranded or drowned. Perish the thought. smile.gif

To me the whole thing sounds difficult to judge because I can't get any sense from the story about what their normal behaviours were - whether Stacy would normally cry and say no during consensual sex, for example, or whether Bob was looking at her face the whole time or huffing away obliviously over her shoulder. There are a whole lot of variables. Clearly it's a bad mistake, but like several other people here I found Bob's concluding comments sinister.

I think that just because they didn't experience it the same way doesn't mean either of them's experiences of it was invalid. Basically I agree with Sheffield.
sidecar
Forgive me for fanning some flames, and this is not directed at those of you who are giving reasonable responses, but could we all please have a reality check for a second? Bob and Stacy are real people. They are real people who, up until a few days ago, had a happy marriage with a healthy sex life. And now, due to poor choices on both of their parts, they no longer have either of those things and I'm not sure how they go about restoring them.

They are not idiots. They are not an object for satire or lampoonery. They are not an example in a college textbook for discussion in a class on human sexuality or women's studies -- and frankly, I'm disappointed to see them being treated this way.

FWIW, I'm with Sheff and Ven on this one. I don't feel like I can make any judgments, not knowing them or being a participant in this situation, but what Bob said strikes me as unduly sinister and the whole thing just makes me sad. I am very sorry that they're going through this.
girltrouble
QUOTE
looking:Revolting? Glad you understood the parody. The satirical post was, of course, lampoonery.

um...yeah. parody, satire and lampoonery? are you joking me? each of these words, since you like arguing meaning, imply that there is a piece of work (a book, story, song person or, in the broadest sense a genre) that you are working from, and replicating it, changing selective things for humorous effect. weird al does satire, parody and lampoonery. he takes a pop song and changes the lyrics. you did nothing of the kind. the only writerly effect of your post is sarcasm, or facetiousness. which, in a topic of this sort is certainly NOT appreciated. and no, i did not "get it." while i appreciate bombast, as rv pointed out, this is not the place for it.
QUOTE
looking re: post by me:
No such thing as "deserved it"? That's obvious, at least in the context of this thread. If you're ascribing that comment to me, please quote where you think I used it. (I never mentioned "deserve".) There's a world of difference between asking for something and deserving something! I won't insult your intelligence by pasting in dictionary definitions. I'll assume you understand, so we're in agreement on that.
QUOTE(culturehandy @ Oct 18 2007, 06:32 PM) *
GT, I agree. I mean, someone deserving what they got? Looking, my question for you is, would you "deserve" to get raped if you say you got a flat tire on the way back from the bar, while wearing, for example, a mini skirt?

looking:
What a strange, off-topic question. Does that have anything to do with something I wrote? Maybe you think I wrote "deserve" rather than "ask for". If so, please quote it and show me where. OK, I'll give you a sentence showing the difference:
"If I ask you for an apology, does that mean I deserve to get one from you?"
The answer is "no", as is my answer to your question.

culture was going by my misquote of you. this is what i was refering to:
QUOTE
looking:(original quote, first post:)She's more than asking for it.

asking for it/deserved it. i submit there is little difference-- save one of semantics.
you know what they say about the word "assume", and no, i don't agree. you knew exactly the phrase that i misquoted from you, so i think you know why i find it so inflamatory. both assert that because of the woman's actions, anything done to her is perfectly fine. an assertation i would not agree with in any way shape or form. but do tell me me why and how "asking for it" and "deserving it" are different. because to my mind, this goes to the same reasoning that justifies rape because of a short skirt.

***************************
QUOTE
looking:Actually, more than just "hard to control". Google [...] the point of ejaculatory inevitability. It's when the ejaculation reflex can no longer be prevented [...] his "Oh" face?

yeah. i was talking about before the "oh face." i thought this obvious when i said "even if he is just about to cum." what's more pugs was talking about "finishing off" which i think to most means they haven't reached that "point"
and again, i don't appreciate the sarcasm. at all.

***************************

QUOTE

QUOTE girltrouble:

and that is the main reason i say USE YOUR DAMN SAFE WORD. you don't want to find yourself in that situation, and lord knows when you are high as a fucking kite on endorphines you can forget your name. so you want to be comfortable using that word, just as you want to know how to use a flogger or a whip, or a humbler, or whatever you play with before you ever do a scene. the first time you use that safe word should not be when your life is in danger, or your trust is violated. there is a reason that i push this so often.


QUOTE lovemypugs:
I think being pushed to use your safeword on a regular basis is a couple to couple preference GT. I don't think that people who use them are wrong. I just think like pepper does. That if the couple is checking in with one another throughout the scene that is good enough for some people.


pugs, i agree. i think you were taking my post way, way too personally. i know you have had quarrels with other busties of late, but my comments were, for the most part, general. as for what i said about safe words and using them, i was not, if you look at the context, saying that a dom/me ought to push the sub to use their safe word a lot. to the contrary, play for me is about building and keeping trust, among other things. i think a sub ought to be pushed to the safe word rarely, but often enough that they are comfortable in using the safe word, so that shock that rose v was talking about can't occur. metaphorically, it's like checking the breaks on a car. what i always push is safewords, and that you USE THEM-- NOT that dom/mes always push you to them.

and while i adore sidecar, and ven, i still contend that when consent is withdrawn it is rape. inside a marrage or not. as for not knowing their level of experience, i think they've probably had some, since they had the where-with-all to choose a safe word, poorly chosen or not.
LoveMyPugs
QUOTE(ananke @ Oct 20 2007, 12:18 AM) *
As I've often said to complete dickwads - if you could pull out and run if the cops came/parents busted you/whatever, then you can do the same for 'no' or 'stop'.

But he fucked her while she cried because he was angry. That's so many levels of wrong. Sex should not be punishment.


ananke - i think a guy could pull out at anytime but i do think there is a split second where a guy is disconnected during orgasm and might not be paralyzed but unable to move. When Mr. Pug is on top of me (he's a big guy and is heavy) sometimes he colapses on top of me and says he can't move. Now like you said if cops or parents came busting in the door he'd move or I'd take all my strength and push him off and I could I know it. I guess this is what confuses me. If she was really that upset why didn't she really push him off her. Especially if in the end it was about rape or not rape. For ME!!! if it was feeling like rape I'd do everything in my power to push his ass off of me and I'd be screaming like crazy no and stop. On the other hand, what if she kinda liked the control in the beginning then as it progressed didn't and decided that enough was enough. Isn't that just, "Yeah, I'm not feeling this anymore so let's stop." and not "I'm being raped get the fuck off of me RIGHT NOW!" But yet again, I wasn't there so I don't know what was really happening.


QUOTE(sidecar @ Oct 20 2007, 09:11 AM) *
Forgive me for fanning some flames, and this is not directed at those of you who are giving reasonable responses, but could we all please have a reality check for a second? Bob and Stacy are real people. They are real people who, up until a few days ago, had a happy marriage with a healthy sex life. And now, due to poor choices on both of their parts, they no longer have either of those things and I'm not sure how they go about restoring them.

They are not idiots. They are not an object for satire or lampoonery. They are not an example in a college textbook for discussion in a class on human sexuality or women's studies -- and frankly, I'm disappointed to see them being treated this way.

FWIW, I'm with Sheff and Ven on this one. I don't feel like I can make any judgments, not knowing them or being a participant in this situation, but what Bob said strikes me as unduly sinister and the whole thing just makes me sad. I am very sorry that they're going through this.


sidecar - you are right. I don't think I called them idiots (maybe I did) but if I did you are right that we shouldn't. I guess what people mean when they are calling them stupid is that they don't sound like they did their research into BDSM before they started. That's frustrating to people who are into BDSM and have done research and practice it safely. There are those of us who do play with BDSM and still don't agree on important points (gt wink.gif ). I mean there are other aspects to this. Why was she bratting out so badly? Was he lacking in his side of the relationship? Why was he so angry when he finally stepped up to the plate? Maybe he doesn't really want to play rough and she's presurring him into it because it's what she likes. Maybe it was just a big miscommunication and now he feels bad and is trying to move on from it and forget it and that's why he's making the comments he is now. Maybe she's manipulating the situation. Maybe he's an abuser. I have no idea. None of us were there. I think rough play needs to get put on the back burner until they both talk about what happened and redefine their boundries.


QUOTE(girltrouble @ Oct 20 2007, 09:55 AM) *

pugs, i think you were taking my post way, way too personally. i know you have had quarrels with other busties of late, but my comments were, with the exception of what looking said, general. as for what i said about safe words and using them, i was not, if you look at the context, saying that a dom/me ought to push the sub to use their safe word a lot. to the contrary, play for me is about building and keeping trust, among other things. i think a sub ought to be pushed to the safe word rarely, but often enough that they are comfortable in using the safe word, so that shock that rose v was talking about can't occur. metaphorically, it's like checking the breaks on a car.


maybe you're right but the whole me dismissing you thing hurt a bit. i didn't feel like i did that at all. being the fiance of an auto technician the "check the breaks on a car" analogy is a good one. smile.gif
phobia
Ok, first thing, I agree with Girl Trouble.

Second thing, Looking, welcome to my ignore list. Your first post was completely disgusting and you have absolutely zero right to be indignant that none of us aparently "grasped" your extremely subtle humor, if I'm reading the rest of the thread correctly. Luckily the new lounge has the ignore feature and I don't have to look at your lame rationalizations for posting something so completely awful.

Look, people who think that there's no way you could forget a safeword, or that if you were getting raped you would always be in a mental place to push someone off of you or scream or whatever, need to do some reading up on the subject. I suggest going into the Survivor's Space thread here and reading other women's accounts of their assaults and their healing before you make such frankly uninformed comments. It is EXTREMELY common to freeze up in the moment of a rape, to literally not be able to move or think or get away or do anything. It is also extremely common to go off into "subspace" during a consentual kink scene and forget, as GirlTrouble said, you freaking NAME. So any suggestion that it is somehow wildly improbable or that that the mysterious Stacy is lying or whatever when she says she froze up is, again, really misinformed.

I'm not saying that to criticise or call stupid anyone in here. I can see how if you've never been assaulted it would be easy to dismiss such comments, but again, it's just a matter of not having all the information, and there's nothing to be ashamed of in not having all the facts.

Ok, on to the BDSM aspect of this. First of all, they clearly didn't read up enough before trying this "rough sex" thing, since STOP is such a freaking awful safeword. Every single BDSM for beginners type article or book I've ever read says "don't use something like 'no' or 'stop' as your safeword because it can create confusion during a scene." Second of all, they aparently didn't communicate well about boundaries before trying this new thing. I know that the Pugses, for example, set up specific rules and boundaries before beginning their 24/7 situation, so that both of them knew what was going on, and nobody would get suprised. Either of the Pugses are more than welcome to share more about their negotiation process.

But the real problem, as I see it and as several other posters see it, is that the main problem is that Bob fucked Stacy to punish her, because he was angry. That should never happen. Moreover, as several posters have pointed out, with a truly engaged and thoughtful partner, he should have been aware enough of her emotional state that he realized she wanted him to stop. His comments after the fact are extremely sinister and I hope he didn't mean them, because if he did, it's sounding like he will use her consent to "rough play" to excuse abuse and rape in the future if she pisses him off. We deal with this concept a lot in the kink world -- how do you know it's abuse? The key concept is consent. It can be blanket consent with clear boundaries and a safe word, as in the Pugs situation, or it can be consent in the more everyday way we think of it, which can also be withdrawn any time for any reason.

But the main thing to remember about consent is that it is saying "YES," not "not saying no."

Bottom line -- They need to get to a kink-friendly couple's counselor PRONTO.
sidecar
Brava, phobia.

But I also want to note this: While I agree they should have picked a better safe word or read up on BDSM more before engaging in it, I fail to see how all of us saying that is helpful for Stacy at this point. Her marriage and her entire life are irrevocably changed. I mean, to me, saying "you should've done your research better" is akin to telling someone who was mugged while walking down a dark street in the Bronx at 2 a.m., "well, you shouldn't have been walking down a dark street alone in the middle of the night in an outer borough." It's very true, but it's not particularly helpful advice when you feel threatened, scared, and violated.

GT, my initial reaction was "it sounds like rape," but not knowing everything (like did Stacy previously say "no," try to fight him off, and cry during their rough sex play) I don't feel comfortable making that judgment. But as I expressed to tallgirl privately, there is a big problem here, in that a truly sensitive and caring partner should know the difference between rough sex play and forcing your wife to have sex when she doesn't want it. And bratty though she was, no one "deserves" what happened there. She was not "asking for it."

If she wants to try to rebuild this marriage, as phobia noted, a kink-friendly marriage counselor is a must. But to be honest, Bob's comments leave me really cold, and I'm not sure rebuilding this marriage is worthwhile. Some violations of trust can't be overcome with counseling.
roseviolet
QUOTE(LoveMyPugs @ Oct 20 2007, 10:26 AM) *
I guess this is what confuses me. If she was really that upset why didn't she really push him off her. Especially if in the end it was about rape or not rape. For ME!!! if it was feeling like rape I'd do everything in my power to push his ass off of me and I'd be screaming like crazy no and stop.


Well, LMP, I'm sad to say so, but it can happen. As I said before, I was once in a position when I completely froze. Couldn't move, couldn't speak, couldn't fight for myself. It was just like a nightmare. It doesn't sound like Stacy's experience was exactly like mine, but I think I can understand what she went through. I understand that it may be hard for you to imagine based on your own personal experience, but it can and does happen.

Add to this the fact that she was saying no ... she was trying to push him off. But he kept going. And that's where all of this gets hairy, isn't it. That's where we start to move into an area where Activity X is normal or even expected for one couple, but absolutely, totally, completely wrong for another. That's what makes this so difficult. In traditional sexual situations, no means no ... absolutely, no doubt about it. But when you start to cross over into rougher play, the lines get fuzzy. That's why this is so heart-breaking, isn't it.

Sigh.

I feel for them. I truly do because it can be so hard to recover when you feel that your trust has been broken in such an intimate manner. As I said before, in my situation I certainly felt physically violated & in many respects I felt that I had been raped. However, I also knew that man very well. And when I talked to him, I could tell that it was a horrible misunderstanding. We tried to work through it. I will admit that I occasionally suffered from flashbacks for a few years afterwards. However, I have never refered to that old partner as a rapist and I don't think of him as such. I know it sounds strange, but that's just my individual response to my unique situation. Stacey's situation is unique to her (just as her relationship to Bob is unique) so she may have a completely different response.

The bottom line here, for me, is that Stacy and Bob need to talk - be it just the two of them or with help from a couselor, but it must be done. That talk may result in a fight, but even if it does they need to return to this topic & truly talk about it & reach an understanding so that they can work through this together. Nothing we say here will be as helpful to them as their own, honest communication with one another. It will be hard, but since they love eachother enough to marry one another, I hope that means that they are dedicated enough to see this through.


By the way, if anyone else would like to discuss Looking's posting style, I think it should be moved to the "Take It Outside" thread out of respect for the grave nature of the original topic.
http://www.bust.com/lounge/index.php?showtopic=52261
LoveMyPugs
QUOTE(phobia @ Oct 20 2007, 10:52 AM) *
Look, people who think that there's no way you could forget a safeword, or that if you were getting raped you would always be in a mental place to push someone off of you or scream or whatever, need to do some reading up on the subject. I suggest going into the Survivor's Space thread here and reading other women's accounts of their assaults and their healing before you make such frankly uninformed comments. It is EXTREMELY common to freeze up in the moment of a rape, to literally not be able to move or think or get away or do anything. It is also extremely common to go off into "subspace" during a consentual kink scene and forget, as GirlTrouble said, you freaking NAME. So any suggestion that it is somehow wildly improbable or that that the mysterious Stacy is lying or whatever when she says she froze up is, again, really misinformed.


Just to make my posts more clear, I admit that I have never been raped or assulted and that I do NOT know how I would react to this situation. I think I've already said that but if I haven't I'm saying it again. In my mind and my heart I would say no and stop and fight back but if it were actually happening I have no idea what I'd do. A rape say in a dark ally with the perp having a gun to my head I don't think I'd make a sound and I'd probably just do as I'm told because I wouldn't want to be killed. Would I do this with my husband in our bedroom if he crossed the line? I can't say because again I've never been there.

QUOTE
Ok, on to the BDSM aspect of this. First of all, they clearly didn't read up enough before trying this "rough sex" thing, since STOP is such a freaking awful safeword. Every single BDSM for beginners type article or book I've ever read says "don't use something like 'no' or 'stop' as your safeword because it can create confusion during a scene." Second of all, they aparently didn't communicate well about boundaries before trying this new thing.


I think everyone is agreeing on this aspect. Not enough research period.

QUOTE
I know that the Pugses, for example, set up specific rules and boundaries before beginning their 24/7 situation, so that both of them knew what was going on, and nobody would get suprised. Either of the Pugses are more than welcome to share more about their negotiation process.


Phobia - you are right girl. We did sit down and have a long, long talk. Nights after nights before beginning our lifestyle.

QUOTE
But the real problem, as I see it and as several other posters see it, is that the main problem is that Bob fucked Stacy to punish her, because he was angry. That should never happen.


A better punishment IMO is what we do. Wonderful sex without me being allowed to orgasm. That is a more of playful punishment IMO. To fuck someone when they are saying no and pushing you off and you are still pounding away in anger is wrong. This is never done in our home.

QUOTE
Moreover, as several posters have pointed out, with a truly engaged and thoughtful partner, he should have been aware enough of her emotional state that he realized she wanted him to stop. His comments after the fact are extremely sinister and I hope he didn't mean them, because if he did, it's sounding like he will use her consent to "rough play" to excuse abuse and rape in the future if she pisses him off.


I agree with you here as well phobia.

QUOTE
It can be blanket consent with clear boundaries and a safe word, as in the Pugs situation


I think this is where the bdsm world is kinda split in my mind. There are those who do scenes and there are those who do the 24/7 thing. Mr. Pug is allowed to do what he wants. That's what we've agreed to. However, he ALWAYS takes my feelings, concerns and mood into account.

QUOTE(roseviolet @ Oct 20 2007, 11:24 AM) *
By the way, if anyone else would like to discuss Looking's posting style, I think it should be moved to the "Take It Outside" thread out of respect for the grave nature of the original topic.
http://www.bust.com/lounge/index.php?showtopic=52261


Good idea!
phobia
"Just to make my posts more clear, I admit that I have never been raped or assulted and that I do NOT know how I would react to this situation."

Yeah, I just wanted to make it clear that it's very common for people being attacked to freeze up. A lot of "MRAs" and rape apologists out there use the "well she didn't say NO or scream or fight" as a way to justify rape, whether because they force(d) themselves on an unwilling partner or because of some other cultural or psychological reason. It's distressing to see similar-sounding remarks floated around in a feminist space, and I just wanted to point out the truth of the situation.

Anyway, I just hope that the couple in question can work out their differences -- either by working them through within their marraige or going their separate ways amicably. I'd like to know where things stand currently, though -- how is Stacy holding up? How is she feeling now with a couple of days to think and get some space? How is Bob acting? Can Tallgirl give an update?
jami
I agree with girltrouble, phobia and sidecar.
Remember, it can also be about power. and power can be mis-used.
ananke
I didn't comment on it earlier, because I thought people knew it - when the person you love, you trust and you adore takes all of that away so brutally, you do freeze. Because this is not fucking happening. It can't be. You hope and pray that whatever you're doing will stop and it'll be a misunderstanding.

Which is why Bob's response is so fucking horrific - even after she's explained what happened, he's taken the BDSM/looking/MRA point of view that 'you were bratting out and I punished you - so don't brat out'.

A couple of years ago the MU and I were visiting his family. We have a bonzer fight and he got really cranky with me. I went and rung a girlfrend, had a smoke, calmed down - he didn't. The next morning we had hotel sex and he got a bit rough (pulling hair and biting - totally in the realm of normal for us). But he didn't do it because it washot, he didn it because he was pissed off at me. Which led to an even bigger fight and both of us crying because it's not something we want to have happen in our relationship. He didn't say 'well, you pissed me off, and I didn't actually hurt you, so just don't piss me off again'.

The concept that any problem has a sexual resolve is really worrying.
tallgirl
First of all, I'd like to thank everyone for their responses in this thread. It has been thought-provoking to say the least. It has taken me quite a bit of time to move past some of the responses that were less than sympathetic and to get my own thoughts together and respond.

The reason I made the original post was because my knee-jerk reaction was to say that what happened between Stacy and Bob was rape, but on second breath maybe not. I wanted to get some other opinions for her, and that is certainly what I've received. I considered posting this over in LTAS, but put it here instead because what I was more interested in was not the sex aspect of what happened, but how we as feminists and (mostly) women view it.

To clarify a few details from my original post:
  • Stacy knew from previous relationships that she liked rough sex. Although they've been married for a few years, Bob never engaged her in that manner until about three months ago, and then it was in baby steps, as would make sense when beginning something new.
  • Stacy has realized in hindsight that "stop" is a terrible safeword, and if/when she and Bob play in that manner again, a new safeword will definitely be used.
  • Stacy had never taunted Bob in that manner before, either in playfulness or in anger. She never will again.
  • Stacy and Bob had never had sex anywhere near this rough in the past. As noted above, Bob has only been working into this type of role for a relatively short while.
  • Stacy had never really tried to push Bob away before this incident - light, playful resistance, yes, but not pushing with all her strength by any means.
  • Stacy had never before cried during sex. Not with Bob, not with anyone else.
  • Despite having never used it before, Stacy did not forget the safeword, and I don't believe I said she did. She fully remembered it, but it was as if there was a short in the connection between her brain and her mouth. She was screaming "stop" in her head but couldn't make the word come out. Which is why I put it as I did - "too shocked by what is happening to her to actually say the word 'stop.'"

Bob's statement afterword that "now she knows what will happen if she pushes him too far" has also bothered me from the moment I heard it. Bob's stated reason for refusing to be rough with Stacy until recently was that he was afraid of hurting her or doing something she would really not want. There is absolutely no history of abuse between them. These things are likely part of why Stacy didn't choose a much better safeword - he was so hesitant to be rough with her that surely he would err on the side of caution and not cross any lines. She does know now what a mistake that was.

All of your responses - well, most of them - have been very insightful. Stacy is taking the suggestions to heart. She and Bob have stopped all rough sex play for now, and any sex they have will be more on her terms until they've worked through this. They're definitely going to have a new, non-sexual safeword. She has promised Bob that she'll never taunt him in that way again, and he has likewise promised that he'll never initiate rough sex in anger again.

Thank you all for your help, your wisdom, your insight, and for allowing me to sit back and watch the conversation unfold while trying to help my friend.



For the record, specifically to Looking - from my user info you have no way of knowing how many years I've really been on these boards or how well some of these other posters may know me. You had no way of knowing that I would not post something of this nature without being absolutely sure of the person I was speaking for. You had no way to know how very well I know Stacy. This is the internet - who's to say that I'm not just writing about myself in the third person? But Stacy would never have dreamed of manipulating Bob in the way you initially described. This has ripped her apart, although she's coming back together again, and I think that her marriage with Bob will wind up being stronger for it. While you may have considered your initial post to be a wild, off-the-cuff yet potentially real scenario, I personally found it revolting. That said, thank you for trying to clarify your real opinion in your later posts. That much, at least, is appreciated.
culturehandy
Tallgirl, the clerification helps teremendously. With that, I would highly recommend that Stacy and Bob go to counselling. They are not going to emotionally heal without seeing someone. As many of us have stated.

As for Looking, I hate to say this, but your first post disgusted me, and as you are very well aware, first impressions are the lasting impressions. Yes, you came in here and stated your opinion and attempted to redeem yourself, but because of the vile nature of your first post, I, for one, am having a difficult time with anything else you post. I find your posting style rude and condescending. I also gather the impression that you are trying to make yourself appear better than the rest of us. This is the internet, you are nothing more than a screen name, just as the rest of us. The difference between you and the rest of us, is that the rest of us, upon first posting, never EVER posted anything as you did. Good for you for being so opinionated about things, many of us are, but that still doesn't change how I feel.
phobia
TallGirl -- thanks so much for the clarification. I'm still deeply worried about Bob's reaction, and you additionaly stated that "[Stacy] has promised Bob that she'll never taunt him in that way again." The problem was NOT her taunting, it was that he used it as an excuse to assault his wife.

I'm finding it kind of hard to understand why, since Stacy and Bob like rough sex, this is suddenly some sort of ambiguous gray area where we can't really tell if Bob raped her or if he meant to. It seems unbelievable that he didn't know/realize/understand what he was doing at the time, especially in light of your clarification (e.g., she's never cried during sex, she's never tried to push him off before, etc.). And his threat that if she behaved in the same way again she could expect the same treatment has not yet been adequately explained, especially since she's "promised not to taunt him in that way again." This was NOT Stacy's fault. I can't stress that enough. Nobody ever deserves something like that happening to them, whether they are into rough sex or not. Rough sex does not create the kind of gray area that I think some people are attributing to the situation, IMO/IME.

In fact, I did discuss this situation with my boyfriend, and he said the same thing. If there's not consent, it's rape, whether you like to be tied up or held down or whatever. This reminds me of the current situation...
girlygirlgag
QUOTE(looking @ Oct 22 2007, 08:53 AM) *
In my opinion, Bob made that comment as an attempt at saving face, as well as flexing his delusional "macho control muscles". Most of us are aware that some guys say things like that rather than admitting that they were wrong.

Until Stacy made it clear that what Bob did was "not what she wanted", Bob was probably under the (false) impression that Stacy's physical and verbal "taunting" which included questioning his manhood, combined with her "smiling and acting playful", meant that she wanted to play at what she enjoyed and found exciting (rough sex play).



so, that makes it okay? blink.gif

BTW, I think we all know why he said that and the reasons behind it. THAT IS THE PROBLEM.

I too, find your posting style rude, condescending and trolling. welcome to my ignore list.
LoveMyPugs
QUOTE(tallgirl @ Oct 22 2007, 10:48 AM) *
Bob's stated reason for refusing to be rough with Stacy until recently was that he was afraid of hurting her or doing something she would really not want.


Sounds to me, from his reluctance to play rough, that Bob has a bit of a dark side that he feared would come out if they have rough sex as was proven with this incident. Now that he knows this about himself I'm sure he is worried about what might happen if they try it again. With that being said, I don't think they should have rough sex at all until they go and get some professional help. It sucks for her if that's what she likes but I don't think it's in his nature to stay in control of his emotions. Does that make sense?

As far as "doing something she would really not want". Mr. Pug and I are sure of what we both want because we've talked about it. He isn't allowed to do anything new without discussing it with me first. So there isn't any doing something I might not like because we are going to talk about it first before he even tries.

If having rough sex is that important to Stacy then maybe they do need to go talk to someone. Let me change that. Bob might need to go talk to someone about how to keep himself under control during rough sex. Either way, I'm sure it's going to take some time for them to work up to that level of trust again.
phobia
"Sounds to me, from his reluctance to play rough, that Bob has a bit of a dark side that he feared would come out if they have rough sex as was proven with this incident. "

See, I don't understand this. Rough sex doesn't make people rapists, lord knows. Lots of people get raped in perfectly "vanilla" contexts. In addition, it still doesn't address the concept that Bob raped his wife to punish her for playfully taunting him. Dark stuff can definitely come out during rough sex or other kinky play, but I just have not usually heard of responsible, sane people suddenly becoming rapists when they are engaging in rough sex. Maybe GirlTrouble can chime in on this one?

I'll say it again. It's literally un-fucking-believable to me that Bob didn't know or understand exactly what he was doing. He's a rapist, and his wife needs to decide if that's something she can live with. I know I might have come off as waffly on this point earlier, but the more I think about it, the more I feel like this supposed ambiguity is bullshit. Come on -- they've been married for years! Do you really think he's so out of touch with her that he can't tell the difference between "ooh, no, stop [wink wink]" and "~sob sob~ stop! stop! please no! ~sob sob~" Come on. I just can't believe that liking rough sex somehow means rape isn't rape...
LoveMyPugs
QUOTE(phobia @ Oct 22 2007, 01:51 PM) *
Rough sex doesn't make people rapists, lord knows. Lots of people get raped in perfectly "vanilla" contexts.


phobia - not what i meant at all. some bdsm'ers use bdsm as an excuse to abuse people right? do we agree on that part? (not being smart just asking) gt? that there are bdsm'ers who want to have a good time experiencing new things. then i believe that their are others who use it as a reason to hurt people. i think deep down these people are disturbed. i consider bdsm as a way to expand your mind and highten your senses kind of thing not hurt or emotionally damage someone else.

i think maybe bob doesn't understand that bdsm is a way to come together and please one another. i think he just thinks his wife likes pain. i don't like pain. if i fall down the steps and sprain my ankle i am not happy but...i can get spanked for a half an hour and love every second of it, welts, bruises and all. i don't think he can understand the concept of pain=pleasure=closeness=happiness. i think he has it ass backwards like anger=bdsm=rough sex kinda thing. so when his wife was pushing him he thought she wanted pain. i don't think he can rationalize the difference in his mind. this is why i'm saying that maybe it's not for him. he can't do the math in his head. maybe he's just not emotionally right in the head for it. does that make sense?

i'm going to say this and it's going to make people mad i just know it but i'm going to say it. i don't think bob raped his wife. i think that is ridiculous and blown way the fuck out of proportion. i think this was a bad experience gone very bad and they need therapy. Period. Actually, I've thought this all along and my opinion hasn't really changed even after reading everyone else's posts. so i think having said that so as not to start a flamewar (again) I'm gonna lurk in this thread from now on and continue to read everyone's posts and follow the situation.

tallgirl - please, please, please pass on my concerns to stacy and bob. i'm sure their marriage is at stake and that is never a good thing. i hope i wasn't one of the unsympathetic posters you mentioned. i'm trying to be honest in my posts. having been in a relationship for 11+ years i know fucked up things can happen that make you question everything your relationship is based on. believe me i really do know and have been there. those times are the hardest imo. tell them good luck for me. and thanks for being such a good friend to come post it on bust and listen to what other women (and men) have to say. stacy and bob are lucky to have you as a friend. smile.gif
phobia
Pugs, that's a really interesting POV regarding the possibility that Bob just isn't cut out for consentual kink. I might have to think on that some more, but my initial reaction is that he should have made that very very clear when they first started playing around like this. If he truly honestly didn't think he'd be able to control himself, well, that's an issue he REALLY needs to work out with a therapist, because it doesn't sound like the kind of thing that will be limited to "rough sex" forever!!! ohmy.gif

But I still think that we're giving Bob way too much leeway just because there was a history of "rough sex." Yes, lots of people do use BDSM as an excuse to abuse, but I think that's kind of a red herring. The point of the story is that Bob forced sex on his wife when she didn't want it. She gave every sign of not wanting it, and if they've been married for "years," rough sex or no, he should have known it was no consentual. I just think the whole "rough sex" thing is a smokescreen, if that makes sense.

I mean, we wouldn't even have had a three page discussion if it weren't for the rough sex part, right? In any other context, it's clear.

And also, frankly, what Bob was thinking doesn't even matter. From the Pandagon thread I linked to:
"The crime of rape lies in the lack of consent of the victim, not the enthusiasm or motives of the rapist. "

I dunno, I don't think I'm making my point very clearly, which I apologize for. I just really really think the issue of "rough sex" is being used to excuse Bob raping Stacy. YMMV.
ananke
I'm with Phobia - this isn't a matter of 'oh sorry'. This is a matter of ignoring EVERYTHING Stacey was doing and saying during sex, then dismissing it afterwards.

Not to mention 'stop' as a safeword makes me think it was less a safeword and more 'when I say stop, we have to stop'.
kittenb
I have been following this thread for a few days and I want to voice my opinion. I don't think Bob had the intention of raping his wife. And I am not known for my tendancies to be light on rapists. I think that things went wrong.

However, my feelings mean nothing here. The question is, does Stacey think that she was raped? I have no authority to define her experience here. None of us do (other than the fact that this thread was started for just that purpose.) If Stacey were to tell me that she was raped, I would believe her. If she comes to that conclusion, I will support her. But I don't think that that is what Bob meant to do.

Oh, and looking, I put my response to your question in the "Take It Outside" Thread.
phobia
KittenB -- I totally agree. HOWEVER, it seems clear that at least at the time, Stacy did NOT consent to the sex act being forced upon her. Sex without consent = rape, in my mind. It don't get a lot simpler than that. In addition, I think it's perfectly possible for women who are victims of date (ok or in this case husband) rape to not process what happened to them as "rape." That doesn't mean it wasn't sex without consent, if that makes sense. I'm not saying that they don't know or understand what happened, but it might be that she doens't want to call it "rape," for whatever reason, or that she only think "rape" happens with a stranger jumping out of the bushes. So while Stacy's word is indeed needed, and should be respected, I don't think that every time a woman claims she wasn't raped that that means that every sexual activity she's had has been consentual.

Gods, what a terrible sentence. Sorry. What I mean is that not wanting to call it rape, either to yourself or to others, doesn't make it consentual, fun, happy sex. There, see, if I just slow down a bit I can actually express myself!
girltrouble
word, ananke. it's that ignoring that gets me.



it all comes back to consent & communication. how could he not see her crying as a red flag? daddy and i have had pretty crazy play, but when i start crying, she ALWAYS spot checks on me with a "where are you at?" or a "you still ok?" and my crying is frequent. so, if, as tall girl posted, she'd never cried before, even the most inexperienced dom/me would do that at a minimum.

phob, i think you're being incredibly clear-- and that quote was spot on.

pugs: as for some people use it to cause pain, sure. most of the dom/mes (including myself when i top) love inflicting pain. but we are ETHICAL. one of the most sadistic tops i know (who uses brass knuckles in play) is very careful choosing her subs, and their consent is ALWAYS required. are there people who use bdsm as a pretext for bad things? of course, just like there are people who use safety as a pretext for war. but they are not ethical. she does probono work for some in the bdsm, and she will lay it out legally. consent is everything.

as for bob's comments post rape; that seems to me a bit of (vile) shame for what he'd done.

QUOTE
girltrouble wrote "when daddy and i play i beg, plead, cry and sob, i say no, stop, please, and every varriation thereof, but she likes pushing me to my limit, she litterally won't stop until i say my safe word". And doing that was Bob's mistake. He wasn't checking to see if Stacy was feeling too much pain, or not enough, or maybe he should change the speed, maybe vary the pressure, but Stacy doesn't want to answer questions, well at least we've got that safeword! And the idea that Stacy might not remember the safeword may not have been one of Bob's main thoughts at the time


and looking, do not take my posts out of context. the difference between what daddy and i do, and the situation we are discussing here, is that she and i have had NUMEROUS conversations about the parameters of what we each want. and we both have quite a lot of experience with bdsm and negotiating our limits. and even with daddy, the second she ignores my safeword is the second i never play with her again. i had to learn the hard way, playing with me, (or any sub) is a privilage, and if that trust is violated, that privilage gets revoked.
tallgirl
I only have time for the briefest of replies, so I'm going to hit two points and then get back to work.

1 - In discussing the event immediately after it happened, Stacy told Bob she was sorry if she had confused him as to what she wanted. His reply was that this had actually been the first time he wasn't confused - that as far as he was concerned, he was crystal clear on what she had wanted because she never said "stop." Clearly this is a part of the relationship that has to be redefined.

2 - Stacy's immediate reaction was that she had been raped, and despite apologizing to Bob several times after it happened, she continued to feel that way for more than 24 hours after the event. The more she thinks about it now, though, the more she feels it was just a whole situation gone wrong. She does think Bob should have stopped, but knows he didn't intend to rape her, and she also blames herself for instigating the event. It's all quite the mess.

I have definitely expressed that they should consider counselling if they want to get past this, and am sure it is being discussed. Thank you all again for your feedback.
phobia
Tallgirl -- please please please reiterate to Stacy that THIS WASN'T HER FAULT. She needs to stop fucking apologizing. NOT HER FAULT. I hope whatever therapist they go to can help her understand this.

Maybe since you know her better, you can help clarify the concept that "despite" all her (HER) apologies to Bob, she still felt like she'd been raped. I'm very baffled by this. Why does she feel like she needs to apologize to him for feeling like he violated her? He violated her, ferchrissakes. God, I'm sorry, I know they're your friends, but she was raped by her husband and is apologizng to him? This situation is beyond fucked up.
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