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girltrouble
it just kills me that people can label something horrible that they have no practical experience with. i always admired my cousin who, when asked about something she surmised she wasn't interested in, would simply reply, "meh. it's not for me."

i guess i am with you, nelly i'm not really intersted in strenuously arguing the point. and the post was from forever ago.

glad you like the links. i've been kind of looking for really cool female artists to inspire me.

i've got a bunch of women i've followed for a while, but ji is new for me, and i think she's my favorite. i just love the idea of day of the dead make up. it's just breathtaking.
knorl05
a video game marketed to kids that kills and rapes women &or prostitutes, yes horrible. i dont need "practical knowledge" of it to know that. you dont agree.. "meh" good for you. 'agree to disagree' an unfamiliar concept with some busties eh?
girltrouble
i'm fine to disagree if your facts are straight, and it's a moral thing, but i think when you make charges that are untrue, like gta has rape in it, then i think you make yourself look stupid, but hey, if you like looking like that, by all means...


personally i believe in getting the facts, so when i do say something, i can defend it. but there is always some jackass who wants to argue something, facts be damned. i can't help but snicker and giggle when someone gives them a smackdown verbally. hell, even better when i get to do it myself....

g'head.....push it, knorl i live for a good argument.

knorl05
sorry dear, i really dont care that much. video games are not my thing, and arguing about them is rather trivial. yes, it is a moral issue for me. i've seen my brother play the game. prostitutes. sex. children. play. just doesnt go together as far as i'm concerned. the issue of rape was brought up in this thread. i've not seen the latest version of the game, but i wouldnt be surprised if it had rape in it as well. i'm not worried about sounding stupid because that's the last thing i am... perhaps i dont have the details down, but my opinion remains the same. mindless video games, violent movies, tv's as pacifiers = waste of time and useless way to distract oneself (eta: especially children), and in my opinion, of poor taste.

wait wait... what thread is this? oh yes. what does it mean to be a feminist. discussing the moral implications of a children's game that includes screwing and disrespecting women, is the issue. meaningless "facts" about gta should probably be redirected to another thread. i'm sure there's a gamers thread somewhere in bust.
neurotic.nelly
hey, sorry that was me that wrote that women were being raped, I got my wires crossed. The hooker that gets beat was the most disturbing part to me, but gt and i were also talking about rape, and so, I got the wires crossed. Which, gt then addressed the fact that there is no rape, but there may be some secret sex scenes one could access with the right coding or whatever.



girltrouble
lol. you're funny, knorl.
QUOTE
i'm not worried about sounding stupid because that's the last thing i am...

hmmm, you've got the wrong impression of yourself.

you know that old saying, better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt?

you should have kept your trap shut.

700+ posts and you still don't know better? i think it's good that you don't mind looking stupid, since it's all day everyday with you. but, i would like to pause for a second and thank you. see, i was gonna say something like, "i believe that you are an idiot." using your logic, saying i don't really need any proof, i just believe it. granted, that sort of logic (i.e the kind you use), is silly enough and easily refuted, but what do you know?! here you come, proving my point, i warn you, but you decide to push it!

now i can definitively say you are one! QED!

this shit practically writes itself! sooo fun using people's, idiotic arguments against them. it really does make my day.
after all, i warned you, and well, now, i get to have my fun! if only tha interwebs could truly convey the joy of tearing you a new one! alas, alas, alack!

now do you see how popping off and not knowing the facts comes back to bite you in the ass, or should i continue?

but while i'm here, i think it odd, how you are quick on the trigger to come in here and start shit with me, when, for all your high minded talk, you do nothing about your brother playing the game. oh, the children! the children! hmmmmmm. "dear" looks like you need to get your own house in order before you yap, yap, yap at me.
this could have been a dead issue till you resurrected it.

look, everyone in the lounge takes rape seriously, but you don't help when you play a cassandra, seeing it around every corner. better to be judicious when we point that cannon and put every effort into it, but not when it's merely a straw dog, a false argument. in cases like that you weaken our impact in other times when we need to make the most strenuous case possible.

please keep this going. i've been nice for a while and honestly it does get tiresome. you'd think with warning and a name like trouble, people would be a bit cautious, but nope.
starship
Someone's internet 'power' has gone to their head....literally creaming your pants at the thought of getting one over on someone online? are you for real
girltrouble
hey starship, you want some too?

heh. this could be a red banner day.

look chickie, we were having a civil conversation, and had come to an agreement till knorl shot her mouth off. if you want to get involved with the fricas, i gots no problem. you take a swing at me, you get a warning, but if you take that second swing, best believe when my turn comes i'ma make it hurt. or you could just drop it. it's your call. makes no nevermind to me.

play the hero. see where it gets you. just know, you've been warned.
kittenb
QUOTE
wait wait... what thread is this? oh yes. what does it mean to be a feminist. discussing the moral implications of a children's game that includes screwing and disrespecting women, is the issue. meaningless "facts" about gta should probably be redirected to another thread.


Actually, one of the reasons I started this thread was to discuss whether there were some things that you simply couldn't enjoy/support/endorse and still consider yourself a feminist. For me it came down to "questioning your pleasures." Just because something turns me on or makes me happy, does it make it okay to enjoy or am I hurting someone by enjoying it.


So a debate about GTA fits under that topic.
Moonpieluv
not that I know much about games, but Mr. Luv does... very well! haha. I'm not a gamer. I may try a few out to appease my bf (I say that in jest), as I like Spore and what not. I'm more a "meh, it's not for me" kinda gal.
I wasn't aware that GTA was a children's game. If a parent or guardian is allowing a CHILD to play this game, then it is not the game's fault per se should it produce negative implications. It clearly states it is for mature audiences.

What I do know about gta from information gathered from someone who has extensive experience with this game and many others to boot, is that it is truly a crime drama. It has a detailed storyline.
**NO rape is in gta, at all. You do not have an option to do so, at all. You can get a prostitute to "ride you" in your car, if you choose. You can abuse her after the fact, should you choose. So it's based on choice, as in real world situations.
**You are not forced as a player to abuse prostitutes. You do have the option of beating one, should one so desire. With that said, you can choose to abuse or kill anyone at any given point in the game. There is a massive police response for doing so, thus there are consequences to your actions. again, choice.

Above mentioned Facts are not meaningless when they clear up a convoluted argument.

The question of whether violence..etc.. should be more regulated or one's opinions about violence in entertainment/media should be directed to another thread entirely.

Endnote: Jack Thompson(self-titled gaming expert and school shooting expert) was disbarred for Libbel/Slander. He targeted the gaming industry, but more specifically gta and rockstar entertainment.





starship
QUOTE(girltrouble @ Jul 13 2008, 05:13 PM) *
hey starship, you want some too?

heh. this could be a red banner day.

look chickie, we were having a civil conversation, and had come to an agreement till knorl shot her mouth off. if you want to get involved with the fricas, i gots no problem. you take a swing at me, you get a warning, but if you take that second swing, best believe when my turn comes i'ma make it hurt. or you could just drop it. it's your call. makes no nevermind to me.

play the hero. see where it gets you. just know, you've been warned.


I don't really care about the game debate. Just thought I'd point out how pathetic you sound ranting on like some hardass wannabe just because someone happened to get some facts wrong about some stupid game. No need for it 'chickie'.
You're not gonna 'make it hurt' or effect me in any way whatsoever, yknow why? because it's a fucking forum- something you don't seem to have grasped. Do or say as you please, it wont change the fact that you're acting like a twat who got loose on a keyboard. The fact you think I'd care makes it all the more hilarious...
girltrouble
QUOTE
You're not gonna 'make it hurt' or effect me in any way whatsoever, yknow why? because it's a fucking forum- something you don't seem to have grasped. Do or say as you please, it wont change the fact that you're acting like a twat who got loose on a keyboard. The fact you think I'd care makes it all the more hilarious...

hee hee. you wanna know what's really hilarious starship?

you.

you do care, otherwise why not let it drop? i mean if i'm so pathetic, why bother? if the issue was that i was 'ranting on' then why keep it going? nah. you're more pathetic. you're laughable. "its a fucking-forum" lol. and twat! that is the capper! what, is calling me a twat supposed to hurt me? lol. chickie, that, that shit is funny.

speaking of which,...i have to tell you, starship, you kind of give yourself away when you called me that. see, that tells me all i need to know. you're emotionally invested. *shrugs* you do care. speaking of which, if i sound like a twat, what do you sound like coming in here calling names? tsk. you've undermined your whole point, and you look just as much, if not more of a 'twat.'

honestly, starship, i have to tell you, you are the first person to call me a twat! (love that!) somehow, i feel honored. i do so enjoy this. it cracks me up. you may not understand this starship, and it's obvious you don't like it, but to me this is fun. it's a writing exercize. i like crafting an argument, defending my logic, and when insulted, insulting people back. it's entertainment. it's fun, and i write things that make me laugh. so while you pretend like this really doesn't effect you (evidence to the contrary), for me, goddamn, this is my idea of fun! you crack me up. hell, i crack me up.

as i said, i really love a good argument. but since you are calling names, i have to tell you, you can do better than twat, starship.

really.
you can.
i believe in you.

*whispers* it's so stock. i mean if you're going to call names why not go for something original, like, oh here's something easy, a play on the person's nic, like i'd call you starshit, you know, something that adds that *personal touch.* besides, i do think i'm starting to like being called a twat!

you are sooo much more fun to play with than knorl. thanks starship!
oops. starshit!
heh.
your turn!
Moonpieluv
uh.. safe to say that y'all should take it outside. blink.gif

knorl05
girltrouble: i think it's odd out of 30 years on earth, you are literally the first person to refer to me as stupid or idiotic. girl, you are, as its said on the streets: whack. you are a fucking loser if you get off with this type of shit. really, quite pathetic. good for fucking you oh goddess of bust. your emotional rantings really show your lack of tact or class, and your immaturity. the people who know that, see that. so just keep going with whatever nonsense you have to spit.

and if you really knew what was going on, you would see.. yes, go back a few posts, that i did not start shit. YOU started shit by saying i had no practical experience with the game, and so because of that, i had no right to post. that's complete bullshit. i was simply randomly stating my opinion of the game dynamic, which was nothing personal against you silly silly girl. and yes, again, go back and read, that i mentioned in the first post my little bro played the game. (eta: and he knows my opinion about it as well).

why the fuck you take everything so personally? i do not know. why you've got a bug up your ass with me? i do not know. it's sad. if you werent so annoying i would almost feel bad for you. a hobby would do you well.. shit maybe being a bitch on bust is a hobby of yours, more power to you. and keep saying whatever you need to say to make you feel better about yourself. your intentions really are transparent.
auralpoison
Technically, if you're using the "street" version of the term it is "wack", not "whack". As in "That bitch was wickety wack". "Whack" means to strike as in, "Yo mama need to whack yo stupid ass upside the head". It's also used as an adjective as in, "Gee, ***** sure is a whack job". Any other usage in terms of being "street" is incorrect.

Awesome flipout, though.
knorl05
right on ap. ty for the correction. wack she is.

as well as a self-admitted troll.

troll: One who purposely and deliberately (that purpose usually being self-amusement) starts an argument in a manner which attacks others on a forum.
girltrouble
*snickers*
if there is one thing i can tell you, it's that ap was NOT saying i'm wack. see, ap and i are cool. she was capping on you for being so 'street.'

you're just too slow to know. which is REALLY FUNNY.

but this is about you and i and starfish or whatever.
QUOTE
go back a few posts, that i did not start shit. YOU started shit by saying i had no practical experience with the game, and so because of that, i had no right to post.
ok. first, i wouldn't say you'd have no right to post. that goes against my personal ethos. second, that's starting shit to you? telling you something you readily admit? huh? and you think i'm taking shit personally? oh knorl. you are waaaaay too sensitive, if that's starting shit. that's crazy nitpicky shit. cos you admit you don't have any practical experience with the game. your information is, at best, second hand via your brother. *shakes her head*
QUOTE
i dont need "practical knowledge" of it....
so are you starting shit with yourself there? WTF?!

let's do a quick recap since your memory is faulty.
i never said you had no right to post your opinion, i never would. that's not in my character. i said:
QUOTE
but what bugs me is when people make pronouncements when they know nothing...if you don't know, put that front and center, then sound off, but when you try to come off like you know (like the writer at feministing), then you make yourself look like an ass, and you discredit and misinform all those who would like to give voice to an informed opinion.
a comment aimed at the writer of a feministing article, more than you. but more i say even if you have no direct experience, just say that upfront. there was no trouble till you said this little nugget:
QUOTE
'agree to disagree' an unfamiliar concept with some busties eh?
a direct dig at me, as no one else was debating your point. so..... what, i'm not supposed to take a comment directed at me personally? uh, ok.
you started it chickie. if anyone is taking shit personally, it's you.

argument after argument you kept getting the legs knocked from under you. when you tried to say this was the wrong thread for this, kitten said it was why she started the thread. nelly even jumped in to say that rape was a side subject that accidentally got folded into the gta discussion, but you continued to conflate the two by saying
QUOTE
the issue of rape was brought up in this thread. i've not seen the latest version of the game, but i wouldnt be surprised if it had rape in it as well.
again. no facts, no nothing. but i'm the troll.

whatever.

*cue the eyeballs rolling folks* y'all are comical.

starship comes in defending you, and she gets all riled up all because you get all upset at me about something you said several times yourself.

knorl05
gt: i knew that's what ap was doing.. i was ignoring her intentions. she and i have had our beef in the past and i know you two are bust butt buddies. i was more making fun of the whole thing than anything else.

this really really is ridiculous. i dont know why you've gotten into such a huff over this issue, you're quite a cruel and lame person if this is what you enjoy.

sharing my opinion that you dont seem to agree (it really kills you that..blahblahblah). yes that to me shows you cant just let it go and be like, oh ok, that's her experience, that's the way she feels, oh fucking well. all this over a video game? wow. dont know how you function IRL when someone doesnt fit your idealistic standards of intelligence, which if you call me stupid, must be most people you come across.

*pats gt on head* i'm out girlie. fantastic debate, you have proven your superior arguing skills. but hey, i'm not one who revels in an emotionally heated, immature exchange of ideas, so it's no surprise. i prefer a mature discussion showing respect to each side, which obviously is not being found in this thread.
girltrouble
uh huh. seems you're the only one having a problem having a "mature discussion," since i had no problem, with kitten, nelly, or moonpie, nor did they with me.

i think you prefer the kind of discussion where facts don't get in the way. sorry i couldn't accomadate you with that.

guess you're too sensative.
knorl05
nice edit.
girltrouble
glad you like it.
i could always change it back to, "get some help." if you prefer. either works for me, but i think the sensitive thingy, well that goes better with my earlier theme. how am i supposed to know you were here for the first version? after all my time that was before 12:30. gosh, your time that must be....?

oh dear. get some rest too.
starship
Can't be assed reading your reply properly because I honestly find all your pitiful desperation to argue with people rather cringe-worthy
I did not call you a twat, I said you're acting like one, regardless of what the argument is and who's right or wrong. I stick by that
And in response to these few lines I'll no doubt get some ridiculously huge response that you poured your heart, soul and thesaurus into. yawn
kittenb
QUOTE(Moonpieluv @ Jul 13 2008, 06:48 PM) *
uh.. safe to say that y'all should take it outside. blink.gif


Please.
LoveMyPugs
QUOTE(Moonpieluv @ Jul 13 2008, 02:46 PM) *
not that I know much about games, but Mr. Luv does... very well! haha. I'm not a gamer. I may try a few out to appease my bf (I say that in jest), as I like Spore and what not. I'm more a "meh, it's not for me" kinda gal.
I wasn't aware that GTA was a children's game. If a parent or guardian is allowing a CHILD to play this game, then it is not the game's fault per se should it produce negative implications. It clearly states it is for mature audiences.

What I do know about gta from information gathered from someone who has extensive experience with this game and many others to boot, is that it is truly a crime drama. It has a detailed storyline.
**NO rape is in gta, at all. You do not have an option to do so, at all. You can get a prostitute to "ride you" in your car, if you choose. You can abuse her after the fact, should you choose. So it's based on choice, as in real world situations.
**You are not forced as a player to abuse prostitutes. You do have the option of beating one, should one so desire. With that said, you can choose to abuse or kill anyone at any given point in the game. There is a massive police response for doing so, thus there are consequences to your actions. again, choice.

Above mentioned Facts are not meaningless when they clear up a convoluted argument.

The question of whether violence..etc.. should be more regulated or one's opinions about violence in entertainment/media should be directed to another thread entirely.

Endnote: Jack Thompson(self-titled gaming expert and school shooting expert) was disbarred for Libbel/Slander. He targeted the gaming industry, but more specifically gta and rockstar entertainment.


As far as I'm concerned this is an excellent post. I must admit I'm totally impressed with Moon's knowledge of the video game. It says everything. GTA is not a children's game. It has a parental advisory on it and is for adults. I don't remember it having "rape" in it. You can pick up a girl, the car rocks around a lot, then you can let her out and hit her or drive over her or what not. Just like you can with any other person on the game. When you hurt someone the cops come. I think it's a game of choice like moon said. I don't really care for the game. It's violent but did Mr. Pug go out and hit people with a bat when he finished playing it? No, because he's an adult and takes it for what it is...a game. I sure wish Mr. Pug could come in here and make a post. He'd have a lot to add. I do agree that if you aren't a gamer you shouldn't make assumptions about what happens in any particular game.

I don't care for video games. Well, I'm lying I love Guitar Hero III and our Nintendo DS and our Wii. We have a lot of fun games and nights with friends. One thing I never liked was war games. I didn't understand why one would want to play pretend war. I mean war is terrible and people get killed. Who wants to pretend to do that? However, Mr. Pugs is playing Call of Duty right now online. I started to sit next to him while he was playing and it does have its fun aspects.

For example, he plays online so he plays with his friends. They team up and talk shit over their headsets (nerds biggrin.gif ). They strategize and use the wrong weapons (newb tube for example) that makes a funny poof noise when you shoot it. Everyone sighs on the board when a newb tube user comes into the game. It's very funny and I crack up myself. I love watching him play with his friends.

Is it violent? Yes, but again, it's for adults who take it for what it is. I am shocked when I hear young kids cussing and talking shit on Call of Duty. Where are their parents? They are clearly under the age of 14 and still they are playing violent video games. However, Mr. Pug was watching violent horror movies and playing violent video games at an even younger age so I can't really say anything. In my opinion, GTA is certainly not for young kids and neither is Call of Duty.

Guitar Hero III has girls dancing on stage which I guess could be considered wrong and sexist but when you are playing the game you are so engrossed in the colors coming up the screen you aren't even looking a the background so what does it matter? But it does. I'm still playing it.

*whispers* I'm obsessed. I want to be a Guitar Hero someday!! biggrin.gif
auralpoison
I was taking the piss because it's funny as fuck when somebody who is obviously not street, has never been near the street, talks street. Especially when they have to announce that it's street. Plus, I just figure if you're gonna fight with somebody & use vernacular, you should use it properly. I've said it before, if you're gonna dis somebody it means more if you do it right. Otherwise, well, it's just wack.

The "best butt buddies" crack was fuckin' priceless. (They really don't build ivory towers too near the projects, do they?) The eleven-twelve year olds I used to volunteer with at Gilliam spit verbal fire compared with that lameness. But then, those kids were living GTA for real, they were living on the streets. They were straight hustlers. Just FYI, they seemed to prefer sports games to the shoot-em ups. Madden, etc.


girltrouble
wait starpiss? you didn't call me a twat? oh pooh. now you have broke my feelings. *sniff*
and my gf was calling me a twat all weekend. (love that!)
tsk. too bad. if youre gonna call names atleast have to huevos to stand behind em, not hide behind semantic bullshit.
just as well. your reply was...

...well it was just...... boring.
not sharp, not biting, not funny, not insulting, not smart, nothing but mealy mouth horseshit.
the only reason to put the energy into a bland, back petaling post like that is to get the last word.
ok. you win. you've bored me into submission.
knorl05
funny how some busties think they can assess a person's character and life experience based on a few posts in an online forum. the street reference was satirical. i'm not taking any of this seriously, hence making it campy. hey maybe -on some level- i am an elitist, but it's not something i feel bad about. i've got compassion and empathy for everyone, so i've got nothing to prove.

now that this thread has been COMPLETELY derailed... think it's time to just go *hush* and move onto something else.
faerietails
*delurks*

... blink.gif ...


... unsure.gif ...

Anyway...
Do you think "womanist" and/or "humanist" is a copout for "feminist?"
neurotic.nelly
I don't think those terms oppose each other. I am a feminist, but I love the term womanist, and I think being a humanist is essential because we've got pyschopaths in power killing humans and calling it freedom. But I digress. I think focusing on terms and categories is limiting. Ty faerietails, I wasn't sure how long that was going to go on.

kittenb
I used to think that womanist was a copout from saying feminist but then someone explained the history of the term. Apparently, womanist was started as a reaction to the fact that feminism has so often been a white woman's movement. So, while I still prefer the word feminist, it seems the ultimate goals of both movements are the same.

I'll write more later, maybe. I'm not at my deepest mental space right now.
auralpoison
See, I don't see feminism so much as a "white woman's movement" as much as a socio/economic one wherein the white folks simply have more money. In the more povertied classes, whether they be black, white, or Latino, feminism is almost non-existant.

I was part of an organisation in the mid to late nineties that tried to address this issue by going out into communities & talking to women about feminism & equal rights. Projects/section eights, community centers, trailer parks, motels, shelters, etc. The thing was that most of the women involved with the group were white, idealistic, *upper middle class*, *educated*, & lived fairly *comfortable* lives. They had no idea how to talk about feminism to women of all races with five kids, three jobs or welfare, an abusive husband in jail, & the equivalent of an eighth grade education. The word feminism made the women cock their heads & look at us funny because they thought of feminism as some kind of evil, man-hating, bull dyke, hairy-legged, bra-burning brigade out to get men. It was counter-intuitive to them, & in their guts they didn't trust the majority of the volunteers at all. I think that maybe if we had used the term womanist or womanism, they might not have felt as threatened or have been as suspicious of us as they were.

I suppose I also prefer feminist, but womanist is fine, too. I definitely think it reaches a broader audience & is less scary to the uninitiated.
girltrouble
if you've been around long enough you've heard me talk about 1st, 2nd and 3rd wave feminisms, but i think they are important in this discussion: i always view feminism in terms of that last wave-- it's last revison.

every ism needs to "work out the bugs" so to speak, the weaknesses that aural is talking about are the bugs, the blindspots that the original constituency failed to anticipate. any movement has a group of like minded people with certain things in common, but while that homogeny serves to strenghten the bonds needed to take that movement to a wider audience, it fails when it has to be incorperated by people who are different.

that was first and second feminisms. so while i sooooo get where women of color, trans women, poor and 3rd world women were left out of the original equation, that third wave compensates. it sees those people left behind and hopefully works towards including them. now what is needed is to do exactly what aural was talking about-- taking it to those groups and explaining how it benifits them. i think in a lot of ways that problem is the same one that afflicts progressive politics in general. too much ground has been ceeded to the right. they have painted us, our ideas with a tarbrush, and now we have to pay the price of neglecting those groups who were heretofore ignored.

that said, i prefer feminism.

i like it's history. i like that it represents that fight, that struggle, not just for white middle and upperclass women, but also those outsider women who had to fight to have their ideas, their point of view and womanhood recognized by that feminism that was all but set on ignoring them, discounting them. i love those scars. those battlewounds. i love all of those women that came before me. their heart, their suffering, and their sweat. most of all, i respect their sweat. that hard work they did to get us to this point.

like the lady said, "ain't i a woman?"

i hear that phrase, and i think, f'ing yeah! feminism! so, as much as i believe in a womanism, and that feminism, like all human rights struggles must have a bedrock of humanism, and compassion for all people, for me to call myself a feminism is an act of self-definition. it is a battle cry, a rallying point, a point of pride.

for me, it's always feminist3 first.
neurotic.nelly
here's the definition of womanist as defined by the woman who coined the term, Alice Walker, from 'In Search of Our Mothers' Gardens: Womanist Prose'

" the black folk expression of mothers to female children, 'You acting womanish,' i.e. like a woman … usually referring to outrageous, audacious, courageous, or willful behavior. Wanting to know more and in greater depth than is considered 'good' for one … [A womanist is also] a woman who loves other women sexually and/or nonsexually. Appreciates and prefers women's culture … and women's strength … committed to survival and wholeness of entire people, male and female. Not a separatist … Womanist is to feminist as purple is to lavender."

Again, the term womanist is dear to my heart. But I love the shock and awe of feminist.

My introduction to feminism theory came by way of women of color, that third wave of feminism. So, I think women like bell hooks and moraga cherry really grabbed feminism by the horns and made it ours too. No doubt.

girltrouble
*sigh* i heart busties....
auralpoison
See, it's funny. I've been spending a lot of time with one of my aunties as of late. She's a great lady. BUT. If I tried to bring feminism up to her she'd think I was talking some kind of witchcraft. And I'm not kidding in the least. None of the waves of feminism have crashed upon her shores. She works two jobs to put her kids through school & has an alcoholic husband, & frankly, I don't know what he does for a living. He comes & he goes. She still wants a man to take care of her, not realizing that she's doing a great job of taking care of herself & hers. She's a feminist in her own way, she just doesn't know it, nor would she label it as such if she did. To her, it's just what a "grown" person does. And I doubt that she'd know who Bell Hooks or Moraga Cherry or hell, even Alice Walker are. She'd be familiar with the Color Purple & Maya Angelou because of Oprah or Tyler Perry, maybe.
girltrouble
i'm of two minds in cases like that. does it matter if she calls it feminism or not? but if you ask her if she should be paid equally for equal work, i'm sure her answer would be the same as mine or yours. perhaps it's a bit age-ist of me, but that education about what feminism is, how it works needs to be focused on those coming up. they have to carry on the struggle.

you can see all around us what happens when education of the younger generations is neglected in the deterioration of the labor movement. it grew stagnant, comfortable, lazy. it forgot it's history, and suddenly in the last 10 years they find themselves practically irrelivant and toothless. in the last two years they could have co-ordinated strikes to force national healthcare. instead they went on strike, half heartedly, then progressively gave in to the big 3 auto companies, only to find that along with giving back all the benifits they had fought decades for, once the ink was dried on the new contracts, the companies announced massive layoffs, violating many of the terms of the contracts, and erroding their numbers even further.

i say this as a person who used to be unquestionably pro-union, who left a union job to work at a non-union shop, because i could nearly double my pay. the union stewards where i had worked had a contract where new employees got shit pay, and old timers got paid for doing little. the union seals it's own fate when it fails to look after it's chicks. in ten years that place will be non union, and 80% of it's employees will get shit pay...

same with feminism. if we fail to instruct our sisters, our daughters our nieces, and their male siblings, those things we've struggled for, those gains will evaporate without a peep. think of roe v. wade. instead of taking it for granted we need to tell those stories, sow those myths ingrane them in those coming up so they can see when they try to cross those lines.
sybarite
I prefer and use the term feminism because of its history, as GT says, and also because it means what it says (or means many things to many people); it still has a strong currency, even if it provokes an indignant reaction. I don't want to water it down. Feminism is a broad, often contradictory church but I appreciate that the word alone has such discursive power.

Saying that, I see it used in discussions I find irrelevant, such as how Sex in the City is a feminist show. I didn't know feminism made a point of supporting shoe shopping and general materialism.

I also agree with AP's point that 'feminism' isn't always particularly accessible, even if people agree with its tenets. I think if you are speaking to a woman or community unfamiliar with the term except where it has been bandied about in the media to describe so-called extreme activity/events, then it can be less than useful, initially. Talking to people unfamiliar with 'feminism' can include discussing feminism's history, but maybe starting with key issues (labour, childcare, healthcare) would get you further.

I'm just echoing what's just been said actually: just mulling as I write.

geekchickknits
I as well am on the feminism train for many reason, not the least of which is respect for the women who went and fought before me. When my mother was attending university 40 years ago, she wasn't allowed to wear pants to class!

That being said, I do believe Sex and the City is a feminist show. I love shoes, and getting dressed up and looking pretty. I love being an independent woman and paying my own way. I want to have children and a family one day. I love having a lot of sex and right now I love having a lot of promiscuous sex.

There you go - I'm Carrie, Miranda, Charlotte, and Samantha all in one!
neurotic.nelly
Sex and the City - a feminist show! "Ha! Ha!", said or laughed like Nelson Muntz.

ETA:
"I think if you are speaking to a woman or community unfamiliar with the term except where it has been bandied about in the media to describe so-called extreme activity/events, then it can be less than useful, initially. Talking to people unfamiliar with 'feminism' can include discussing feminism's history, but maybe starting with key issues (labour, childcare, healthcare) would get you further."

Sometimes, it is appropriate and necessary to separate academic feminist theory from the "everyday hard working Joan". I do not need to call it feminism to know what it is and how it plays out in everyday life.
auralpoison
From the Guardian: Can a Feminist Really Love Sex & the City.

I can't say I am a big fan of the show, but I certainly do love shoes & I buy 'em on my own dime. Picked up a pair of Mizrahi oxfords today.
culturehandy
You know I'mso sick of people saying that as a feminist this is what I should or shouldn't like. By some feminists applying this label, they are becoming the very thing they are fighting against.
auralpoison
It kind of reminds me of the Men We Love Issue with Justin Theroux on the cover. One of the men we love, I don't recall who, mentioned that he'd read a lot of feminist books & that they all had different ideas of what feminism is/was, so he wasn't sure how to define it. But he defined himself as a feminist, I suppose in the sense that he he is pro-woman, pro-equal rights.

Maybe feminism's like porn, you know it when you see it?
sybarite
I don't mean to be prescriptive about Sex in the City; I certainly think you can be a feminist and also enjoy the show. It's not like I haven't watched loads of episodes and laughed. I was just sick of the glut of articles which came out around the movie insisting how great and liberating the show was, because I think in the end it did devolve into being about shoes and the return to traditional roles and responsibilities for the characters. My biggest problem was with how they 'punished ' Samantha for having a straightforward, often fulfilling sex life by giving her cancer. I did like that article though AP.

Feminism encompasses so many historical stages and approaches that I just try and use and reference those I agree with. One woman's feminism might not be my version but I respect her right to it. But I'm preaching to the converted here I'm sure...

As for men calling themselves feminists: I used to have a problem with this, as I figured they hadn't experienced those gender-based inequities feminism works to overcome. These days though I'm happy if a man is reading up on and engaging with feminist arguments; making an effort is a great start.
culturehandy
Syb, I totally didn't mean that towards you at all, I just meant it is a generalization. It's like saying you can't sugar or shave or wax your cooch because it's "unfeminist". I seriously had someone tell me that once.
geekchickknits
QUOTE(sybarite @ Jul 16 2008, 03:24 PM) *
My biggest problem was with how they 'punished ' Samantha for having a straightforward, often fulfilling sex life by giving her cancer.


I don't view this as punishment - as dramatic structure, and if you look at the series as a whole, all of the characters were given challenges in their life that are viewed as obstacles in the life the want to lead:

Miranda has an unexpected pregnancy (true, brought into the script by the actress' pregnancy)- potentially the kiss of death to a high powered career woman.
Charlotte is essentially infertile - she who desires a baby and to be a mother more than any of them.
Carrie, who makes a career out of studying love, relationships, and sex has an inability to see the reality of her own relationships.

Samantha self-image is tied up in being a sexual person, and a sexual being, and part of that for her is physical attractiveness. She gets Botox (and an unfortunate incident with a chemical peel), she gets nude photos taken of herself, and her breast cancer is discovered when she goes in for a boob job. The cancer (which she beats) forces her to address her physical body in a different way, and truly accept it.
girltrouble
i was gonna do a post on the last few comments on SITC, but i know fuck all about the show* (it's not exactly my pair of jimmy choo's), i've watched exactly 1.5 episodes of it. while i live for semiotic readings of tv and film, and gleaning meaning from it, i doubt anyone else likes reading 'post-modern readings on darwin's evolutionary theory as it applies to the film, the french lieutenant's woman' other than me. but well, i'm a film theory geek. i get into this stuff and i start talking in theoryese, and well, i'm sure everyone's eyes would glaze over, so instead, i'll just recommend my favorite film theory book, which is the bible on the subject, leo baudry's the world in a frame:what we see in film.

however, i will say this, disease, death and prison are usually punishment for any sort of transgressive behavior, in film tv etc.. while all the characters may have obstacles, it's not really a point of "moral equality" since that is just a matter of dramatic structure, and drama requires conflict. the rare case where it's not is when it is something that is present at the start of the film and usually the focus of the film. a good example would be eric stoltz' character in mask. because he has the disease at the start of the film, he is never punished for it. inspite of it's rather sympathetic view of transmen, a film like boys don't cry is a case in point of how death is a punishment for brandon teena's transgressive behavior.




*if you'll note, i'm putting that i know nothing about the show upfront. my area of expertise is in semiotics in film, tv.
candycane_girl
I'm a big fan of Sex and the City. It came on when I was only 15 but I've seen every episode. To me it was finally a show where women were simply...who they were, living their lives and not giving a damn. And yes they focused on shoes and clothes but it's not like that's what the characters were all about. They weren't just their outfits.
neurotic.nelly
Hmmm... there's plenty of men that are unable to connect with the show and pretty much loathe the show. Wasn't it Maxim that clowned SJP as the most unattractive woman in the world of something to that effect. You know, it just maybe a feminist show. *snickers*

Meanwhile, I saw a picture of Mr. Big's real girlfriend who looks Guamanian or something, and hubba hubba, she's pretty and thick and almost as tall as him.
culturehandy
I never veiwed Samantha getting breast cancer as punishment, to me it was something written into the show, as many women go through it. I'm sure that a lot of women who watch the show can relate to aspects on the plot, so why not have another life event which somen women can relate to.
sybarite
GT, disease=punishment for transgressive behaviour was exactly my reading for the reasons you mention... but then I studied film and tv theory too, so there ya go. wink.gif

I do think it's disingenuous to see these things as 'just happening' to the characters, especially as each character reverts to a more traditional role, albeit in different ways. Miranda, represented as the most independent of the lot, is put in a position where she's not only looking after a baby but also her M-I-L.

It's interesting to me that so many of us have definite, thought through responses to the show. I'm not exactly objective: I turned against the show precisely because I do think it's been influential, and I didn't like that the message seemed to change. Samantha and Charlotte became caricatures and Carrie just frankly irritated me. No role model of mine is going to be a simperer. But even my reaction there is strong, instead of just 'whatever.'

Oh CH, I didn't think you were singling me out; I was just treading carefully as I dipped my toes into the thread... I've known women who argued that shaving any body hair was unfeminist. The dogmatic lists of sanctioned 'feminist' behaviour are what put a lot of people off feminism IMO.
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