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designermedusa
I love Peggy with Duck, I could see it being a relationship. For some reason he doesn't seem like an creepy old man to me, maybe it's because Peggy is mature and proper for her age.

I love Don, but he is being such an a**hole this season. I wanted Peggy to tell him to f*ck off.
ketto
I really liked last night's episode. I really couldn't get into Betty much in the 1st or 2nd season, but I'm loving her this season. I was so happy when she finally pretty much said she hated her life at the end. She's finally standing up for herself and the way her and Don were interacting made them seem a lot happier, less secretive (yes, I know they're both still keeping secrets). I was also really happy that she sat down and talked to Sally like she was a real person.

I hate Pete.
nickclick
I hate Pete! He's such a dweeb. I was mad at him for cheating and then almost as mad for his weiner-y way of telling his wife.
ketto
I was mad at him for raping the au pair.
nickclick
holy crap, my attention must have been elsewhere during that scene... i was wondering why the neighbor said she was crying.
ketto
Well, I guess it was more implied. It wasn't as out there as Joan's rape was. Apparently there's been a lot of debate on whether or not what Pete did was rape, but I felt it clearly was. There's a really interesting discussion here: http://www.feministing.com/archives/018168.html#more

"If people had trouble accepting that Joan was raped, though, I'm sure there will be even more debate about whether Pete raped Gertrude. He did, of course. The power dynamics and the fact she did not consent were made obvious. There was an added layer of complexity here, though, in that we followed the rapist throughout the episode. We saw Pete's experience of the build up to and aftermath of the rape.We saw that he thought he could buy Gertrude's sexual submission. We saw that his guilt was about cheating on his wife, not raping someone. We were admitted into the mind of a male rapist who does not understand what he is doing and the intense wrongness of his actions. A deeply disturbing viewing experience because it gave a bit of a glimpse into the mind of someone who does not understand consent. People who deny this rape are in some way identifying with Pete. This is a potentially teachable moment, an opportunity to point on one person's thought process as they plan, carry out, and react to raping someone. Coupled with an explanation of consent this can give people a really personal understanding of how they need to center consent in their approach to sex. Never before have I thought about how it could be valuable to show a rapist's experience. Kudos to the Mad Men writers for their bravery in actively making one of show's main characters a rapist and not excusing Pete's actions, something that happens far too often in popular entertainment."


People had a lot to say about it in the comments section too.
designermedusa
I used to like Pete, but now I am disgusted with him. I know it was the 60's, and possibly a man of his time would not understand it was rape, but it doesn't excuse it.
girltrouble
it really boggles my mind that people couldn't see that was clearly rape. i know it's not the explicit, clothes tearing, black eye version we usually see in film and video, but that is indisputable. it's kind of strange, but it's as if the show is exploring not just gender roles, but the variations of violation. from don with the comedian's wife to joan to the au pair.
candycane_girl
I find it really incredible the number of people who find that scene with Don and Bobbie to be "really hot". I didn't find it hot at all. Even if I had a sexual relationship with a man, if he suddenly stuck his hand up my skirt to prove that he had control over me I would feel completely violated.

As for the scene with Pete, I interpreted it as though they had slept together but that the au pair was crying because a) she had cheated on her boyfriend and b ) Pete totally used her. I feel like I need to go back and watch it again.
roseviolet
So much to talk about! It's interesting how the civil rights movement was sprinkled through the episode. Especially that moment during the fund raiser: a bunch of white women, appalled by the segregation in the south, completely oblivious to the segregation that still exists right in front of their faces every day. Even so, Betty's comments on civil rights ("Maybe it's not supposed to happen right now.") really shocked me.

I'm surprised that Betty cut things off with WhatsHisName so soon. Makes me wonder if that's really over or not.

I'm so disappointed in Don for sleeping with the teacher. Or rather, I'm disappointed in her for sleeping with him. I was hoping she'd be the first woman to turn him down. Sheff was especially stunned by one thing Don said: "I want you. I don't care. Doesn't that mean anything to someone like you?" What does he mean by "someone like you?" It seems clear that, to him, she's just another woman in a long line of women. Even she seems to know that, but she gives in anyway.


Sooooo ... how many episodes until Sterling Cooper shuts its doors? Or if it isn't going to close, how are they going to save themselves?

Conrad Hilton came across as SUCH an ass tonight! Calling in the middle of the night, all that talk about the moon during the presentation, etc. He says he thinks of Don like a son, so maybe he'll be back, but I don't know. I've never been quite comfortable with his appearance on the show, seeing as he's a real person and all.

Roger was so angry in this episode! I've never seen him so pissed off. And he was only in, what, 2 scenes?

I hope this is not the end of Sal. I really like him and I don't feel done with him yet. I don't want our final moment with him to be the phone booth scene in the park.

Which reminds me, I miss Joan. I keep wondering how they're going to bring her back. The actress' name is still in the opening credits, so hopefully that means they have more plans for her in the future.

kari
Yes, great episode last night!

Betty - Ugh. She is SO oblivious. Just a privileged, kept white woman. When she told Bobby to watch his tone b/c "Carla works for me, not you," I wanted to slap her. mad.gif

Don....Oh, Don. This woman reminds me somewhat of his mistress from the first season. Dark hair, intelligent, independent, strong willed (well, in comparison to his wife anyways). I wanted her to turn him down too, but I can also see how much will power that would have required.

I think Joan will be back. She's too much of a fan fav to go. Right?

Conrad Hilton is looney. Geez. When he said the thing about Don being "more than a son" - that was just too much.

I feel terrible for Sal. Don was so pissed off at him for not accepting Lucky Strike man's advances. I hope he comes back too, Rose. I like Sal a lot.

candycane_girl
I doubt that this is the last we'll see of Sal. People on this show get fired and then un-fired all the time, lol.

As for Joan, it was good to see her last week even though it was sad. The look on her face when she saw Pete was so disheartening.

I'm finding it really hard to like Don this season. Even though he has cheated in the past now it just seems more pathetic. Also, he just seems so moody at work. I understand that he's under a lot of pressure and all but it's like he's being a jerk just for the sake of it.

I also like that this season we're seeing more clients who aren't happy with the crew's work rather then client after client being blown away by Don's creative mind.
nickclick
I looooved Peggy's "You're not so smart after all" face at Don when she left the Hilton meeting.
girltrouble
dunno rose, to me, don's words to the teacher, weren't that she was just another woman, but rather, that she knew his deal from the start, that he wanted to be reckless, and not careful with her. that he was willing to risk his marriage to be with her. atleast that's what i took it to mean.

i felt sorry for sal too. esp. when don said, "you people!" when sal didn't do anything.


and kari, i agree about betty. i don't think she really cared one wit about segregation, so much as an excuse to see that guy again. i loved that carla knew she was having something with that guy right away.
designermedusa
I've had it with Don, the "you people" comment to Sal was infuriating. I hope Sal gets back somehow because it wouldn't be the same without him. Also, they must bring Joan back or I don't know if I can watch the show anymore. If they ever get rid of Peggy that would end the show for a lot of people.

I read online that one of the writers who won a Emmy got fired, the creator of the show thought her writing services were no longer needed. I'm getting a little worried that this may be the last good season for Mad Men.
candycane_girl
dm, I read about that writer as well. Apparently Mad Men has an extremely high turnover rate for writers, but Matt Weiner was saying that she had written incredibly well and reached her full potential for that show. I found it really similar to Lorne Michaels saying that he fired Michaela Watkins from SNL because she needed a bigger vehicle for her talent.
girltrouble
that's too bad. shows are so much better when the staff is a bunch of writers who know and get the people. that's one thing that made battlestar so clunky sometimes. they'd set up things for someone, the next season the person was doing something that they'd NEVER do, for the sake of the plot. :/
candycane_girl
I don't know, I think the writing on Mad Men has been pretty solid and if that's the method they use then it seems to be working. I like the fact that they are making Don so unlikeable this season. To me it's a way of showing how he might be viewed by the other employees at Sterling Cooper and also that his sex appeal can't just give him a free pass. And like I said before, I like the fact that a lot of their pitches this season are falling flat.

It was just a coincidence that this show started not long after I graduated from an advertising program so I think that part of my love for it stems from knowing that creative process and how difficult it can be. I especially love that even when they have a good idea that could be really successful the client shoots it down because it isn't what they wanted. As one of my old teachers would have yelled at us, "You're off strategy!!"
coffeebean
Hi all, just wanted to join and say that I am loving mad men this season as well. I fully agree with ccgirl regarding her comments about liking how things are not going so swimmingly with clients at sterling cooper this season and how writers have made don less likable. Betty is really coming into her own this season and I am liking her character more than before.

I don't know, there is something about this show that just keeps my attention more when compared to other programs. I think part of it is the lack of music...has anyone else noticed this? I think it is more dramatic that way. Can't wait for next Sunday!
nickclick
Does anyone else think Man Men compares to the Sopranos? Leading macho man, bored housewife, society with prescribed gender roles, closeted gay character....
nickclick
OK i only started watching this season..... did we already know that Don was married before? or is the audience learning this along with Betty?

i know it goes without saying, but Peggy is awesome, how she has to take the high ground AND be better than everyone else to prove her worth. Paul better be sweet to her forever and ever. and ha ha haha - he whacked off to a Chicago poster!

and i was waiting the whole episode for the vintage-clothes-porn/money shot of seeing a million gorgeous dresses at the party.... Betty's was pretty but, I wanted to see all the ladies in their finery. what was Peggy wearing for crying out loud?
edie52
Nickclick, you really should go back and watch the first 2 seasons! We know that Don was married, but it was the real Don Draper who was married to that woman, not Dick Whitman. Dick/Don sought the divorce so he could marry Betty. If that doesn't make sense to you, then you REALLY need to watch the other seasons. tongue.gif

I LOVED the way they ended this episode. Betty's visceral hatred for Don, and that lingering shot of her that cut at just the right moment.

I like how we don't know exactly what Betty knows- is she mad about the divorce, or has she figured everything out? I think they'll leave us hanging for the next few episodes and have it explode during the finale. JFK's assassination is coming up, too. I think that might be in the finale, as well.
ketto
It's true, there's a lot of backstory to all the characters and a lot of Don's secrets were revealed last season. You can watch them online at a few different places.

I wanted so badly for Betty to be able to confront Don. I feel like Betty probably isn't able to put all the pieces that she knows together yet. I figured JFK must be coming up in the next episode or two, it was already November this week, wasn't it?

I don't really like Don's new lady. She reminds me a lot of the first girl he was seeing in season 1, but she really comes off as wanting something more serious with Don. I haven't figured her out yet...
nickclick
thanks, i have to seek out some of the previous episodes for sure.

i kind of like the teacher/Don's new lady. i mean, i did while she was still turning him down.
ketto
I know, eh? Can't there be one woman who can turn Don down?
girltrouble
i dunno, i always like don's other women. even the comedian's wife. he just doesn't seem like a good match with betty to me. even when they seemed like ken and barbie. she seems rigid, and he has been thru too much, has too many secrets. i think, as someone who has lived with secrets, you kind of long for that person who will love you inspite of them. some of the things the new girl has said makes me think that's why he's drawn to him. she seemed to have his number when they met, and now, i think her just wanting him no matter what is a helluva lure to him.

but, i do wish there was a woman who had don's number, was his equal, but wasn't at all interested. i'd be curious about his reaction.
stargazer
Nickclick, I'm late to Mad Men too. I think I understand your parallel of Mad Men with the Sopranos. For me, it is Betty's love/hate relationship with Don and his work. I felt Carmella had similar feelings, longings for a different type of man, but, when she was away from Tony, she realized she has grown accustomed to living a certain life, the clothes, money, privilege, etc. I get the same sense about Betty. It will be interesting if they add some depth to her. But, I do not see her that way. She is pretty vapid. I don't mean that in a put down sense, but, it is just how she is.

GT, you know, I think I've been intrigued how on the interwebs, people are painting Don's new woman as some Fatal Attraction woman in the making. I don't get that sense about her, but who knows. There's part of me that wonders if she will drop Don. Or at least, maybe part of me wishes/hopes she does to give him a taste of his own medicine.
candycane_girl
I have to wonder if maybe they don't show Don getting rejected by a woman because chances are that he would just brush it off and move on. He seems like the kind of person who wouldn't get too hung up on a woman, he would just figure "you can't get 'em all" and forget about it.
kittenb
Actually, nickclick, I think Paul was wacking off to an advertisment that he created comparing Jackie O w/Marilyn Monroe basically saying that every woman is one or the other. The fact that he created it just added a level of wonderful ick to me, as if he was masterbating to his own genius or something. I was worried that he, in his drunkeness, was going to go to Peggy's office and do something gross there.

I don't like the teacher at all. I distrust her whole character. It is like she is trying to show how different she is w/her flowing dresses and hippy hair, but she really just annoys me.
ketto
It's true, he was using his own rejected ad. I find Kinsey a little slimy but quite funny. My only problem with this show is that it takes so long to tell one characters story (once every 3 or 4 episodes it's about sal, or peggy, or pete), but I don't think there's any other way to do it.
girltrouble
i dunno, i doubt she'll be a fatal attraction, star. i sort of suspect from the rest of the series arc, they are setting don up for a serious fall. all one has to do is look at the opening credits. it's all about that fall from grace. after all, he is the embodiment of that era where the series started. all around him we see his firm coming apart at the seams. either he will adapt (i'm thinking of his change in california), or he will end up like that first exec that got fired forever ago-- a drunk.
period_monster
I loved Betty last night. Finally, she seems to be taking responsibility in making the decisions of her life. I am very curious to see what happens in the next couple of episodes between Betty and Don.

and thank Maude for a return of Joan in the future(?). I miss her terribly when she is away. Maybe Sal will be reinserted at some point???
nickclick
period, i agree. it was refreshing to see Betty exhibit some strength. and to see Don in such a vulnerable position! i was waiting for the teacher to burst in though.... he got out of that situation too easily.... for now, i'd suppose.

please fill me in again.... i'm guessing Roger and Joan were lovers? or is she just playing him?
designermedusa
Last night's episode was so good. We got to see Roger a little more, I don't really like him, but it was nice to see him out of the office. So when he was talking about his true love, he was talking about Joan and not his current wife, right?

I'm glad to see Joan may finally break free of her husband, my guess is he will go to Vietnam and die, then next season Joan will be back at Sterling Cooper. Mad Men always skips long periods of time when a new season starts, so I hope this is the case.

They must bring Sal back, but I don't see how they will swing that.

I was applauding Betty last night, I think I yelled "Finally!". Her confronting Don was a big step for her, and she knows she can't divorce him, at least for now. Funny how Betty's snobby ways show up, I mean when she said it was obvious Don didn't understand money. Now Betty kind of has the upper hand. I am so glad the teacher thing is over, it was really annoying me.
ketto
Nick, Roger and Joan were having an affair in season 1 and Roger seemed very serious about Joan but she wanted to move on and get married, from what I remember.

Medusa, I wondered the same thing when he was talking about his true love. I guessed it was Joan, and I think my guess was confirmed by the preview for next weeks episode.

I couldn't tell if Joan was actually happy that Greg was joining the army. She seemed surprised at first but then she seemed relieved. I figure the same thing about him going to Vietnam.

Such a good episode, so great to see Don finally talk about his past with Betty. I wonder what will happen with him and the teacher.
candycane_girl
Was I the only person who watched the episode with a jaw that just kept dropping and dropping and dropping? I swear, throughout the whole Betty/Don conversation I just kept gasping and I couldn't close my mouth. I loved it. I liked the fact also that they made it known that at that point a woman couldn't ask for divorce unless she could prove that her husband had committed adultery. I was just reading something about that a few weeks ago. It's a reality check for those of us who would otherwise think, "Hey just leave him!"

As for Joan, I was actually pretty surprised when she hit her husband with a freakin vase! That's a bit much, even for Joan.

How many episodes are left? I'm already salivating for the next one.
nickclick
Complexity, Beauty, And The Underappreciated January Jones
from NPR; a good counterpoint to an accusation (linked in article) that Betty is boring and Jones is a bad actress (and written before Sunday's episode).

PS I just put seasons 1 & 2 on hold at the library.
ketto
Lots of folks online where saying "I don't condone violence, but it was so satisfying when Joan hit Gregg". I found it unsettling. It was a pretty extreme act that came out of a lot of frustration but I don't think 'satisfying' is the right word.
kittenb
When Joan hit Greg with the vase, I was shocked. Satisfied in that way that I am when I hear of retribution being taken upon rapists. However, it is scary to see how far Joan has been pushed. She needs out and away from him. Her unhappiness is turning her into something dangerous.
girltrouble
i think my favorite part was when joan was talking to roger, and said, "look at you figuring things out for yourself!" i almost did a spit take...

but i think don totally got of easy, i was waiting for that knock on the door. i think the writers took the easy way out too. i mean, i know it fit a little bit in her charecter, but ugh. she just got walked on and rolled over.... :/
flowergrrrl27
I'm glad to know I'm not the only one who is obsessed with this show. . . So addictive.
I LOVED last weeks episode, all the ladies starting to come into themselves, so awesome. I dug it when Joan hit Greg over the head, serves him right for being such a whiny, rapist freak that he his. I REALLY hope that Joan comes back to Sterling Cooper, at least as a regular again. I also loved, "Look at you figuring things out for yourself."; such brilliance. I agree that she is the love of Roger's life, he married Jane because Joan wouldn't. I really love her character.
I also love how conflicted Betty is, on the one hand she loves her life, but she is so isolated from the rest of the world and she is really coming to see that and to perhaps do something about it. . . I was hoping they'd show her reading The Feminine Mystique, then just going off on her own or something, but I like this story arc even better. She is going to do something, I just can't figure what. Maybe take the kids and move into her parents house and start her life on her own terms??? I don't mean this as a spoiler, but as a thought. . .
As for the teacher, I kind of like her, but she did just allow herself to be a huge doormat. I mean, just walk away from the cheating bastard, would ya???
I have to ask though, is anyone as conflicted about Don/Dick as I am? I mean, is he a good man, trapped by the culture he lives in or is he just a philandering dillweed? I think he's a good man, at the core, but he, like all the other characters, is trapped by what the world expects of them (or did expect back then). But then all that cheating, is he doing it because he can and is he really just a womanizer?
Paul is super creepy, I loved what someone said about what he was REALLY masturbating to. . . His own genius, of course. Peggy will ultimately prevail, if not right away, as the 2nd Wave starts fermenting. . . oh, yeah!!!
Ok, now I want to watch the show again. . . I heart On Demand cable. . . rolleyes.gif
And I really need a life. . .
nickclick
oh yeah Feminine Mystique was published in 1963! will Betty happen upon a copy?
ketto
I don't think they'd make that much of a jump this season to have her reading "The Feminine Mystique", but two or three episodes ago she was reading "The Group" by Mary McCarthy. Definitely an interesting choice.

QUOTE
In 1933 eight young women friends graduate from New York's Vassar College. One of them, Kay Leiland Strong marries a theater producer. At this scene the narrator tells about the family background and the characters of the young women, whose lives until 1940 are the issue of the novel. Most of them come from wealthy families, but the depression reduces their affluence. Only the New Yorker Society-Girl Mary Prothero (nicknamed Pokey), Cleveland Steel heiress Helena Davison, and intellectual Elinor Eastlake from Chicago (nicknamed Lakey) have a lot of money.

This economic crisis helps the women to live more liberal, autonomous lives. They live alone in New York and earn their own money. Dottie Renfrew from Boston plans to work as a welfare worker, Helena Davison wants to be a teacher, Polly Andrews works at a laboratory, Priss Hartshorn is getting involved with the N.R.A. (National Recovery Administration), and the Anglicist Libby MacAusland writes and works for a publisher. Over the course of the book, the reader learns about the liberal and sometimes surprisingly conservative views of the eight women, about contraception, extramarital affairs, love, socialism, child education and psychoanalysis. On the way McCarthy provides an accurate portrait of that decade.

In the end Kay meanwhile divorced dies. Nobody knows whether it was accident or suicide. Once again the women meet at the funeral. Most of them are married and all have made concessions. Lesbian Lakey returns from Europe with her girlfriend, an Italian baroness, and for a short moment it will be clear: Hitler and Mussolini rage in Europe and the Roosevelt administration will be urged to intervene.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Group_(novel)
nickclick
wow, who else thought Betty was so outta there after Henry's proposal? I guess she knows it's not that easy. Don is certainly freaking out though, even though he dismissed her. I wonder if she'll feel the same next week, after the JFK assassination is less fresh.

I wish we'd see another side of Betty when she's with Henry, like more human. I mean, she does reach out to him after the assassination, but she's still so cold. Does she really feel for him or is he just an alternative?

Peggy may have to change that AquaNet storyboard - it looks too close to JFK's motorcade!

Will Pete really loosen up when he gets back to work and life is normal again? I doubt it. I just hope he screws up worse and gets outta there.

and it looks like Sal will be on next week!
ketto
Damn. AMC usually repeats Sunday's episode on Monday night, but last night was old. I'll have to download the new one tonight. sad.gif
kari
I just watched the new episode last night.

Very interesting indeed.

Nickclick, I know - why would Betty want to get out of one bad marriage just to jump into another? She & Henry haven't even spent that much time together. I thought the marriage comment came outta left field.

Yeah, Don's getting a little taste now. I felt bad for him in a way, just b/c he looked so shocked, but of course he's had this coming for quite some time.

I didn't even make the connection about the storyboard & the assassination. blink.gif

Pete - He is such a weird dude. And Trudy.

I hope Sal is on next week!

Interesting interplay with Roger & Mona. WTF is up with their daughter? Wow.

I think my fav part of this episode what the morning after Don & Betty's confrontation. When Don comes in the kitchen, on his way out, & Betty freezes. The way Sally was watching so intently, wide-eyed, was great. I love Sally. You could just see the thoughts clicking away in her head. She's shrewd, that one.
kittenb
I used to feel sorry for Trudy. Now I am pretty sure that her and Pete deserve each other.

As for Roger's daughter crying about her wedding being ruined, well, I've heard some criticism that she was being selfish but I just took it to her being overloaded. She is trying to get married, her father just left her mother for a twit who is, what, 2 years older than her? And now her big day is doomed because of the freaking Kennedy assasination! I am pretty sure that I would have a selfish sounding breakdown at that point.

Side note, I love that Roger and his ex are actually married in real life. They make such an attractive couple.

January Jones once said that, "Betty loves Don. Don loves the idea of Betty." I don't see her leaving him. First, it wouldn't work for the structure of the show, second, I don't think she is brave enough to start over with a new man yet.
ketto
When Henry proposed, my first thought was "she needs some time to be single, man!"

I didn't think Roger's daughter was being selfish, for the same reasons Kitten mentioned.

It was really great to see Betty being so upfront with Don, but I wonder what next week will look like too. A very interesting turn. Things seem to be really unraveling for Don at this point.
kari
I didn't think Roger's daughter was selfish so much as just extremely immature. She was acting like a 10 year old.

I didn't know Roger & Mona are married in real life! That's awesome!
nickclick
QUOTE(kittenb @ Nov 5 2009, 09:38 AM) *
January Jones once said that, "Betty loves Don. Don loves the idea of Betty." I don't see her leaving him. First, it wouldn't work for the structure of the show, second, I don't think she is brave enough to start over with a new man yet.

true, Betty leaving Don for any length of time might effectively kick her off the show, and that's not likely. probably because i'm from NJ, but i can't help but to make comparison to the Sopranos (although mr.nick says MM is not as good because there's no bloody violence!). when Carm kicked Tony out it only lasted a season.
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