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StarryStacey
Oh my gosh. I think I hacked the fuckers account. F.N. ASSWIPE sure is going to get his karma coming to him.

funk0039
I've been doing some thinking.

First, I'd like to thank roseviolet for teaching me once she saw that I was ignorant. I really didn't understand what I was doing, and I certainly didn't know that I was hurting more than helping. You're right, I don't want to stay here, but I don't agree quite as to the reasons. You probably won't want to read the rest of this, my final post.

Auralpoison, you have aptly named yourself. The really peculiar thing is, and I still don't get why I care at all, is that I pity you and thritiesgirl. Years from now, I'll be happily married, moderately successful, and have lots of kids, while you are alternately "rogering" yourself and picking scabs, miserable as ever. I still can't fathom why you actually "salivated" that I was about to post something in response to one of your foul mouthed missives. Why you gave me such influence over your life, especially since I never wanted nor asked for it, really implies just how empty your life must be. You actually sat there, WAITING for me to write something?! Feel free to reassure yourself to the rest of this thread that you're correct in your assessments, but it's not going to make one iota of difference in your life.

thirtiesgirl will have a few rare relationships, but will end up single, stewing in her own juices, and bitter as ever. I think the difference between us is that I continually admit I'm wrong at a lot of things, and try my level best to learn. Neither of you are doing that in the slightest. I'm going to keep screwing up, but I won't ever quit learning from my mistakes. At least I'll make all new mistakes instead of the same old ones you yourselves seem to prefer. It's comforting being miserable, once you get used to it, because it's all you know. It's frightening doing something different, isn't it?

As for the rest of you who decided to chime in, you were far too quick to jump on the bandwagon. Kinda shows just how little free will and how a deep need for approval from your peers is so necessary in your lives. The only one of you that really tried to do differently, did the opposite, trying to show me how I was coming across and how to change. She even did it without crudity, which is why I responded so readily. No, you don't have to worry, I won't be back. If I could figure out a way to totally delete my profile, I would do it IMMEDIATELY. I think my one of my female friends were right, I shouldn't have allowed any of you to have an effect on me at all, it's not worth the time and energy.

Still I learned quite a lot, roseviolet and a few others provided the positive examples, while auralpoison, kittenb and the rest provided the negative ones. At first, some of you even confused me with this "Steve" character, and others like him. That really speaks of your own collective paranoia, which I tried to lay to rest by simply baldly stating who I am, figuring that there was no way a "troll" (whatever that is) would do that sort of thing. I don't need nor want to hide behind these layers of masks that the internet seems to encourage so readily. If this is the result of spending all of one's time online, then I for one am really glad I don't have the patience to sit still for so long. Sure I type fast sometimes, but staring at a screen for hours just isn't my cup of tea.

I'm going to tell you all a little secret. The reason why you keep getting folks like "Steve" who just pop up frequently is that you go into a tizzy with every appearance. If you simply blocked yourselves from seeing their posts, you wouldn't have this problem. Hell, I even pointed out this little tidbit to thirtiesgirl, who obviously didn't pay attention. These people desperately need attention, which you so willingly grant, as if one person could EVER even remotely affect a small fraction of the enormity that is this forum! This thing is HUGE, didn't you notice? Even if someone spent all their waking hours posting, they couldn't possibly contact, let alone harm, everyone here!

Good luck to all of you, I think you need it.... Goodbye.
ModSquad
Hold it right there!

The ModSquad wants to let it be known that StarryStacey logged on using the exact same ip address as the troll she is reporting. She also logged on at the exact same time. Hence, the ModSquad has deduced that StarryStacey and Femicist Nemisis are most likely one and the same person. Beware, and keep the faith, baby!
culturehandy
yes starrystacey sent me a message informing me of the same. Curious that a poster with onlyFIVE posts would know about steve, especially since "starrystacey" wouldn't have been around for the attacks.
crinoline
slow clap for funk's amazing Miss Cleo impersonation with his "insightful" predictions about people he's never met.
culturehandy
Ahhhh there he goes again with the condescending tone. Show's how little he knows either of these women. Once again, a man thinks he knows what's best.

And I need the luck?? Please mofo, I am a very successful woman who is very comfortable with herself, I think you're the one who needs his head examined. And as for "all your female friends" I doubt that very much. Need for approval for my peers??? Bwaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahahaha. If you ask anyone around here, they'll all tell you that we don't give a flying fuck what people think.

You have now shown yourself as a no nothing useless, know-it-all douchebag who is well and truly misguided.

Further, you can ask a number of men on this site, and they are here, Lore and billy are two who have been here for a long time, how we are, and what we think of them. They're two very good people. Maybe you should take a lesson.

It's funny how you think you know so much from reading posts without getting to well and truly know people.

Take your pseudo freudian anaylsis of busties (which is TOTALLY wrong) and fuck off.
faerietails
HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!! okay, i had to delurk because funk just kills me and i had to giggle. what an ass. "thirtiesgirl will have a few rare relationships, but will end up single, stewing in her own juices, and bitter as ever"?? only her? i would've thought a bunch of man-hating, castrating bitches would all end up bitter, single old ladies, no? fuck you, dude.

modsquad, thanks for the heads up. i kind of figured it was steve from the get-go, considering ss appeared out of nowhere with 4 posts.
culturehandy
I wonder where he got his PhD from.
roseviolet
Funk, I tried to help you earlier. I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt before. No more.

If you're still out there & you still wish to learn something from me, then here's one last suggestion for you: don't lower yourself to such levels. Your final post did not hurt anyone here. You only hurt yourself by showing that you are small-minded & petty.

You do not know any of these women well enough to make such gross predictions, so your statements just make you sound pathetic. Besides, there are worse things to be in life than single & child-free. Indeed, many many people voluntarily chose that lifestyle and are quite happy with it, so I really don't see why one would automatically assume such a fate to be equitable with failure.

That wasn't the worst part, though. Your comments where you bring up extraordinarily personal matters revealed in the mental health threads is absolutely reprehensible. Completely, totally beyond the pale. In the past, you hurt people by accident. But in this case, you were vicious and cruel on purpose. Shameful. Absolutely, horrifically shameful.
girltrouble
QUOTE
These people desperately need attention
-funk

pot meet kettle?
QUOTE
I wonder where he got his PhD from.
-culture

i'm going to hazard a guess and say......kinkos?

but if i were being mean i would have said, "from the crack of his ass."
but i've reformed.
sleep.gif

thirtiesgirl
Oh, fuck off, funk and go the hell away. You're just mad that I didn't pick you. And I sincerely doubt the woman who does will count herself "happily" married to the likes of you.

And thanks, Faerietales.


ETA: apologies, ladies. I'm not being my best self at the moment. When confronted by someone with the mentality of a 13 year old boy, I sometimes react in kind. Apologies again.
pollystyrene
Sorry, I'm too busy laughing my ass off at funk, yet again proving the point that he's another Man Who Explains Things, things that we already know or are wrong.

Rose, I love you. You're the calm, cool, collected half of my brain. wub.gif
kittenb
You know, I've never been a part of running someone out of town before. That was fun. smile.gif
hellotampon
I like how he was constantly inviting all his "friends" to read the site, analyze his posts, etc. "But my friend said you were wrong! I had another friend sit down and read, and she didn't know what you guys were talking about! Then I got the opinion of a 3rd friend and he thought the same thing!" Well I have a friend, and they think you're a total dipshit who thinks you made it all up. haha.
culturehandy
Bwaaahahahahaha Kitten.

I shoulda come wif a pitchfork.

Or is that me seeking recognition from y'alls?
auralpoison
Oh. My. God. I really needed that. I did. I don't know when I've laughed that hard in a great long while.

Of course I salivated in anticipation, punk, I mean, Funk! I enjoy watching somebody build their gallows high with their own two hands & then be their own judge, jury, & executioner. You afixed the noose, you pulled the lever, you dropped. Bravo! You made my day!

Look, If you don't care about me than why the lengthy portion of your post aimed at me? You seem to care enough to have pointed me out several times specifically, so you know you care a little. If you didn't, you'd ignore me.

I've been workin' the kidneys, haven't I? Pissin' blood yet?

You just made our point for us again. You think your light is the only light there is, your way is the right way. And all of your friends agree with you, so we are obviously all wrong & will live miserable lives because we don't follow the way of the Great All-Mighty Omnipotent Funk.

And I will mail you my Carnak hat so you can be Funknak what with all of your predictions. It is sparkly & purple. I think you'll like it! I hope USPS is okay.

Success is subjective, non? I don't need to have your corporate soul-sucking jobs, your 2.5 kids, your minivans, or your houses in the suburbs. I am not so naive as to think that's all that constitutes a "good" life. I am already doing just fine in my chosen field. I own my home, my car, & have plenty of money to live a very good lifestyle until I die even if I choose to never work again. I do not wish to marry. I do not wish to have children.

And even if I do get married & have kids, you can bet your ass I'll still be rogering myself. I think masturbation is normal, healthy, & a perfectly good way to kill some time as well as get in tune with one's body. Try it sometime! Buy some good lube & work that stick around a little! You might hit your pspot with it!

To address the picking issue: Did you honestly think that I thought you wouldn't use it against me? This is the intarwebs, baby! You toss it out, somebody's bound to toss it back, even if their aim is shitty. And YOU throw like a blind, elderly, one-armed, surrender-monkey. Trust me, I see you a lot clearer than you see me & you lead with your chin. You telegraph your next move every single time. Cos yeah, that last shot was the bantam weight verbal boxer's last gasp before giving up. Pity it didn't land. You're beaten, you're bruised, you're spitting blood & teeth. The towel has been thrown, the lights have gone up, & Funk is taking himself (Weeeweewee! All the way . . .) home.
thirtiesgirl
Ok, mouse, continuing our argument from the Halloween thread...

I would argue that I don't think you changed anything by 'turning the other cheek' with the asshole guy. He came into the store and behaved like an asshole towards you and continued to interact with you in a very asshole-ish way. So he smiled and said 'happy Halloween' when you left. That doesn't impress me, considering how horribly he acted towards you from the beginning. If the situation were truly changed, he wouldn't have entered the store, screamed in your ear and likened your costume to a pussy. He wouldn't view another person, particularly a woman, as someone he could mess with in that way.
mouse
ok, first off, this took place outside the store, he yelled running past me before i even said anything to him, the "change" came afterwards, and since you seem to be particularly offended by this one point which to me seems to be inconsequential--seen squished up in my bag, fake guts made from stuffed pantyhose painted pink, kinda really do look like pussy.

secondly, in case i haven't explained it well enough, his entire demeanor towards me changed. if i'd headed back towards my car and ignored him, or given him a dirty look, or said fuck off, or whatever else i could've done to say that i didn't appreciate him fucking with me by yelling in my ear (and i didn't, certainly, appreciate that), he would've either sulked off or continued to harass me. instead, i engaged him in the same subject he was on--halloween--and treated him as though he hadn't been a douchebag. and the reaction was that he was not (as much of) a douchebag as a result, and he made the point to genuinely wish me a happy halloween and wave as he left. i know you weren't there, but believe me--it was entirely different.

i can see that my words could easily get twisted to make the point that i'm saying women should ignore men's harassment and just be nice to them--this is ridiculous, and of course that's not what i'm saying.

the point i'm making is that whatever he was doing, whatever he was getting his kicks by harassing me for, somehow it was mollified by my treating him like a friend.

i was raised quaker, and as such was immersed in peaceful conflict resolution, mediation, etc etc etc constantly. stuff about turning the other cheek, being kind even if they are not being kind to you, jean-valjean-being-given-extra-candlesticks-after-stealing-the-silver kind of stuff. i loved the idea of it, but as i grew older i became skeptical.

i'm still skeptical--i'm not going to say that this kind of stuff will stop you from getting robbed or whatever. but it's worth a try and the times that it does work--as i just experienced--it feels AMAZING.

i'm not trying to "impress" you. this isn't an issue about men yelling at women, or violence towards women specifically. it's not a feminist issue. that's not the point i'm trying to make. it's a humanist issue, and it's about reaching out to somebody you don't want to reach out to and as a result making both of you change your mind maybe a little and FEEL BETTER. it made my night better and i'd be willing to bet it made his night better too.

i think everybody deserves respect and friendliness--yes, EVEN IF they aren't displaying it to me. an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. it's become a platitude, for sure, but it's true.

i don't want to sound holier than thou and i realize i kind of do, but this realization was important to me in a really deep way. i think it's probably an unpopular viewpoint to take as a feminist, but i think that sometimes there are things that are more important than my personally being offended. and yeah, actually, i don't want to have to drag race/class/culture into it but i have to say i DO think the dynamics would've been different if it had been a white frat boy and me, white hipster girl, instead of a young hispanic guy in a rapidly gentrifying neighborhood.

i don't want to get into an argument with you. but i do want to make the point that the "turn the other cheek" thing doesn't really have exceptions for people you don't like, or don't like how they treat you. the whole point is about exactly those people.
sybarite
I may regret this, and I don't mean to be reductive, but from a feminist perspective isn't this simply a case of choosing your battles? My understanding from what I've read (correct me if I'm wrong) is that Mouse chose not to take this guy's actions as an attack on her as a woman, but part of a Halloween activity, albeit one which still incorporated other aspects of this dude's behaviour, i.e. how he may normally interact with (white) women.

Mouse I liked the way you turned it around, myself, and am glad you got a sort of epiphany from the experience.
thirtiesgirl
QUOTE(mouse @ Nov 2 2008, 02:26 AM) *
i don't want to sound holier than thou and i realize i kind of do, but this realization was important to me in a really deep way. i think it's probably an unpopular viewpoint to take as a feminist, but i think that sometimes there are things that are more important than my personally being offended. and yeah, actually, i don't want to have to drag race/class/culture into it but i have to say i DO think the dynamics would've been different if it had been a white frat boy and me, white hipster girl, instead of a young hispanic guy in a rapidly gentrifying neighborhood.

This is where I disagree. My issue is not that he's a Hispanic guy yelling at a nice white lady in what used to be known as East L.A., where many Latino families once lived. My issue is that any guy, Hispanic, African-American, Chinese American, whatever, would treat another person in that way. I don't think it's a good thing to lower our expectations for certain ethnicities. I believe people should be held to the same behavioral standards, regardless of ethnicity.

QUOTE(mouse @ Nov 2 2008, 02:26 AM) *
i don't want to get into an argument with you. but i do want to make the point that the "turn the other cheek" thing doesn't really have exceptions for people you don't like, or don't like how they treat you. the whole point is about exactly those people.

I do get your point, mouse. I was raised by a very christian parent, and have spent many years studying religions, including Quakerism. I know Quakers believe that everyone deserves forgiveness and is worthy of being treated humanely, as a friend. My point of view is simply different from yours. As I wrote below and elsewhere in this discussion, I believe the guy was coming from a wrong place in an attempt to scare and demean you. That would not go unremarked by me, had I been in the situation, regardless of the guy's ethnicity. If someone acts in what I feel is a wrong way towards me, I don't let it pass without communicating my feelings and letting them know that they've upset me and I feel their actions are wrong. I don't act out on it and try to treat them the same way, but I do let them know how I feel.
mouse
thank you syb, that explains it nicely.

thirties, it's certainly not "lowering expectations for certain ethnicities". but i do think that there's more loaded hostility coming from someone who's probably seen his friends and family evicted, arrested unecessarily, and squeezed out of where he's grown up by the likes of me. i mean, *I* would have that if that were me. and of course, unfortunately, some of the newer residents are totally ignorant of that sort of point of view and either ignore or resent/are scared of the original latino community there. if i were he, and i were hopped up on halloween and wanting to make trouble, i think that there WOULD be a larger meaning than just "man fucking with woman". if it had been a white frat boy, well, i think it probably would have been just "man fucking with woman", or even worse, "jock fucking with girl he finds unattractive", which imho is worse than catcalls, and i'm not sure if any jesus-techniques would've made him feel differently. i'm more willing to give my asshole drugstore dude the benefit of the doubt rather than mr. usc, honestly.

the point is, i crossed a bridge, treated someone i didn't like like a friend, and it made me feel better. the times i've gotten mad or offended, it didn't make me feel better.

but maybe that's just me, and maybe it won't always work.
roseviolet
QUOTE(mouse @ Nov 2 2008, 03:54 PM) *
the point is, i crossed a bridge, treated someone i didn't like like a friend, and it made me feel better. the times i've gotten mad or offended, it didn't make me feel better.

but maybe that's just me, and maybe it won't always work.


No, it's not just you. That's the way I prefer to treat tense situations as well. The vast majority of the time, it results in a positive, enlightening experience for everyone involved.

Mouse, you found yourself in a difficult situation. You handled it the best way you could. In the end, a guy who might have originally thought of you as a "bitch" probably walked away thinking that you were a pretty cool person. That's a truly amazing result from such a brief interaction. Perhaps because of you, this guy's perspective has changed. Perhaps now he'll be far more hesitant to refer to a stranger as a "bitch". We can only hope, right?
thirtiesgirl
I agree it sucks, what has happened with Latino families in that part of Los Angeles, and I'm certainly sympathetic to unfair treatment given to minorities, particularly by the LAPD. But I don't believe his behavior towards you, mouse, had anything to do with those facts and everything to do with typical male assholery. I believe if you excuse the guy's behavior, you're playing into his potential victim mentality and allowing him to behave badly because of his circumstances. I believe if we don't raise the bar on our expectations, the behavior of guys who act like this won't improve. Again, regardless of their ethnicity.
mouse
well i guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
zoya
what I believe mouse did was make herself "human" to the guy. It's so easy, especially in a city like LA (I lived there for 7 years, I know how dehumanizing the place can be) to not think about the fact that you're fucking with a human being... until the fact that they're a human being clicks in.

Personally, I don't see it as "typical male assholery," but typical human idiocy. People in general do all sorts of not nice shit to each other. I can totally think of times where I've been having a shit day, and have had a really short temper with cashiers, or people on the phone - but there have been a few times when that other person has said something, or been nice in a way that just clicked in the moment and made me realize that, shit, that person has feelings too, and how not cool of me to take my shitty day out on them, or not to have thought of them as another human being that I should treat the same way I'd like to be treated.

Do I think that this guy's actions were right? No. It's just not cool to do that. But it sounds like the chance that Mouse took in reaching out to him, somehow clicked with him and though he may not have said sorry, seems to me his actions indicate if you read between the lines, that he was. I mean, it's pretty unrealistic to think that a kid in a parking lot with his friends is gonna be like 'oh, I'm sorry I was a dick back there.'

anyway, just my two cents.
roseviolet
From the Sufferin' Suffragettes thread ...

QUOTE(girltrouble @ Nov 8 2008, 01:39 AM) *
thing that kills me nohope is that you seem to think that your bigotry is some sort of morally justifiable bigotry. there is no such beast. anytime you look down at your nose at someone, you've created the offense. you use your beliefs to justify treating others poorly and you are no better than they are.

what's more, it's a riot that you feel free to just make stuff up about obama. sadly, it makes everything you say look made up. which means, when it comes to belief systems, i can say i don't believe a thing you say. is that rational enough for you?


Bravo, GT. Bravo.
girltrouble
i think this is the first time i've been in this thread for not starting an argument....

i feel weird...


*puts her hand on her forehead*

yeah... i think i've got a fever..

lol...thanks rosey.
anarch
I admire your condemnation of the concept of "morally justifiable bigotry" too, gt. There's a lot of it in the air recently (not here at the Lounge aside from nohope, but on other boards I've been reading) *cough* *wheeze*
culturehandy
Nohope your comments about Islam being gibberish are not only ignorant and disgusting, have you ever EVER bothered to read about Islam? Like anything people will distort it to their advantage, before you go shooting your mouth off, I suggest you read about things before cutting and pasting that which you read on a website.

I have friends who are Muslim and if you took your head out of your ass for three seconds, you would see that it is a very peaceful religion.
girlygirlgag
NoHope is the worst kind fo troll..... He just says things to piss you off. He acts like he really cares about what he is babbling about, but all he cares about is starting shit.
culturehandy
GGG, you're right. I should no better, but this time it actually made me irrate. Sounds like someone has been getting his opions from Fox news.

Well, in that case, I think nohope is nothing but gibberish and supernatural.
auralpoison
If it ain't black & white (Or Red.) politics or straight science, he's not interested. I remember him telling us that we, as caregivers of family members, have Stockholm Syndrome & various other random debacles where he started shit just to start shit. His tendency towards sheer fallaciousness is astounding.

His life just seems like one big amalgum of bland, boring, humourless, souless, colourless, joyless, soot-sticky, sucky, unholy, never-ending, that creates a ball of doom & the only way he gets any joy whatsoever is by spreading that layer of misery around.

Good cod. I sounded just like Funknak for a second there. *looks around for spitoon* Ptoo ptoo ptoo!

I am by no means perfect, everybody knows this. I'm not really happy with everything in my life right this very second, but I do crack a smile & laugh every now & again. There's too much *interesting *weirdness in my day not to. A friend once made me a fridge magnet that said, & I feel like a dorko hippie posting it, "Find the magic in the mundane." I've never forgotten it.

And I'm serious about dead guy in my house. He's been here as long as we have. And he's left some residual soul goo or whatever behind. The son of a bitch stole my kitchen shears today.
culturehandy
If no hope is really that miserable, why doesn't he just off himself, then he can come back and let us know if there is something about the supernatural.

Hmmm, AP, as for your ghostie, does he bother you? Is is banevolent or malevolent? You could ask him why he's there and if you can live in harmony...I dunno, not that i'm a big exert on ghoststs.
auralpoison
You pick a name like "NoHope", you know you gotta be miserable. His washroom must be breeding Bolsheviks . . .

I know I've taken some stick on my handle here ( Musical reference & an anagram of my name, HONEST.), but the more nasty connotations were just a happy coincidence as far as I am concerned. The girlies never seem to draw on it that way, but dumb guys, like Funk & Thefedupex that I whaled on glommed onto it being appropriate because I am straight strychnine on chumps.

DERAIL

Charlie, he's not malevolent in the least . . . just mischievious. He followed my mother from the house on Cedar when she was a teen & moved in with my dad. He doesn't want to go anywhere, he likes it here. He just sometimes likes to dabble his ghostly fingers in the material world now & again. It's annoying, but manageable. I like to think he's looking out for me. Although it freaks me out because if *he's* watching me than what's to keep my folks from popping in on me while I'm masturbating? *shudders*

He hides things, that's his main gig. When I was a teen (When he was MUCH MUCH MUCH more potent.), whenever I had a sporting event or Forensics thing that required me to be up CRAZY early, I'd set everything out the night before. Entire outfit, kit, etc: he'd steal one of my shoes. I would have to make an at least five circle trek around the house until I'd come back to my room to find my shoe exactly where it should have been.

My father thought my mother & I were crazy until I moved out & he started to fuck with my dad, too. My dad had several weird hobbies & things would just go missing only to be found a few hours later someplace odd.

Nowadays, when I get crafty, he'll steal my tools. When I'm cooking my knife or my ladle will wind up in the crisper or somewhere equally weird. I found my shears in a measuring cup under the counter when I ALWAYS put them in the drawer next to the fridge after use & cleaning. ALWAYS. OCD sez they go THERE. But Charlie likes to remind me that he's here. He knows I'm writing about him right now because he's popping on something in the living room. Both cats are in visual distance & asleep & it's not the house settling. I can't seem to find what he's pinging though, so it may just be him.
culturehandy
AP, I always love your posts. They give me a panty splash.
auralpoison
This poppeded into my head:

"No heroes, no leaders, no artists, no gods,
I'm a worker, you're a worker,
Wouldn't you like to be a worker, too?"

I must admit, that I enjoy yours as well & that I have totally co-opted the term "panty splash" I said it to somebody I knew & she has now added it to her big she-lexicon of genius.
culturehandy
Awww, AP wub.gif

I so want to be a part of the proletariate.

I use panty splash daily.
auralpoison
I'm petite bougie as a motherfucker. Exploit the lumpen proletariat, I say! Them cats gets me my weed & I feed'em good bougie food. They gots the munchies. Good will engenders an extra bud in my sack.

I do have Patrician toes, however.
culturehandy
Oh exploit me exploit me!
girltrouble
in case you didn't know, ap, if you prefer alliteration, there is also "panty puddle." which i prefer.
auralpoison
Naw, there is something so effervescent about "splash". Makes me feel like my cunny sprays sweet/tart Fresca goodness.

I wish I could say Cristal or something, but my needs are simple, I like Fresca.
mouse
nohope--islam isn't any more a "sacred cow" than any other religion. but as a human i have respect for other people's beliefs (and no, your "it's more probable therefore i'm right" argument still doesn't let you get off insulting every other belief, less probable or not. it's still a fucking BELIEF). yes, there's a lot in islam that isn't nice. there's a lot in christianity that isn't nice either, and in most other major religions. there is also a lot that is very good, like most other major religions. i'm not, by any means, saying you can't criticize islam and if you actually read and understood my points instead of trying to put words in my mouth so you can have an argument about something i didn't actually say, you'd understand that. also, i don't appreciate being told to "get a clue". i'm actually educated and have studied comparative religion, so i do have a grasp on what i'm talking about. your insulting me is not going to suddenly make me "smarter" and agree with you, so please can it.

also, again with the twisting of my words: i didn't say religion *doesn't* play a part in things, i said it doesn't *have to*. so far, obama has only shown tolerance and intelligence on issues that the church usually gets salty about. when his religion actually comes into play with how he governs, then i'll complain. but so far, he hasn't shown any sign of going in that direction.

furthermore, letting one's religion guide one's actions doesn't have to result in trauma. look at jimmy carter--a deeply religious man, doing some of the best things out there--peace work, human rights work, humanitarian aid, etc. sure, one doesn't have to be religious to do those things, but who cares where the impetus comes from if good things are getting done.
auralpoison
*A long slow clap for Mouse*

I have a lot of regard for science, I do. I lean more towards evidence than religion. I'd rather have concrete proof than not, but religion/the supernatural is something totally different, outside of LOGIC. It's it's own creature, largely of man's own ignorant, delusional history making. BUT. There's no *absolute* on it *not* existing. It makes some people feel better, even if there are those elements that don't address us unless it is a time of extraordinary means. And things crop up over & over again all of the world amongst different belief systems that oddly unify us as an occult species over all.

Even as an atheist, I still have a pseudo XFiles mind in that "I'd like to believe." But I don't. I suppose I'm really an agnostic. Per example, when my gran died over the summer, I hoped she was with *her* Jesus. I couldn't do for her what her faith could, but she went at peace in *her* Jesus' hands. I don't believe in God as so much as I believe that there's something more out there that I can't quantify with my regular senses. And that works for some people.

Yeah, by & large I think that most ancient sacred texts are a lot of really poorly written, poetically interpreted allegory, symbolism, & mythology written by a bunch of misogynists that were two thousand years old when we were even more profoundly ignorant than we are; I cannot deny that many of the same ideals cropped up over the world within thousands years of each other. A few thousand years in the grand scheme of things is a drop in the bucket.

But a lot of it had to do with ignorance of human sexuality. What is the slur, "Don't trust anything that bleeds for five days without dying."

Completely OT, I just wonder. Communism, Marxism, Socialism, etc. all seem to go *against* the nature of man (*Please*, we don't feel equality amongst the peoples.), not the nature of religion. Religion has it's place. But the all mighty dollar prevails. Man is greedy & out for himself. Period. We're animals no matter how much we try to subvert it. We have lizard brains. It's not a fault, it's evolution. The Utopian ideal proffered by those philosophies just seem to be proven again & again as a grand failure in the idea that we all are unified. We're largely not unified even if we think we are.

I've been to Cuba. Those people THRIVE on the blackmarket. That's how they feed themselves. It's all black market. They'd be fucked if they followed Castro's ideals.

While I like the ideals, I am still independently wealthy. I don't be owing anybody anything,

But, I've been drinking, so whatever.
culturehandy
I also studied religion in University, I took a very interesting class on the anthropology of religion. Then for a paper, I used the same major theporetical approaches in Religion and applied htem to science. and guess what, they fit.

So, NoHope, why don't you get a fcuking clue and realize that science is religion.

Further, your panning of religion saying that it's garbled nonsense (I'm not picking word for word, but that's, the gist), is just as ignorant as the people you are putting down by living wholly for their religion.

You are what we in Anthropology, like to call ethnocentric. Is that too big a word for you? Would you like me to cut and copy the entry from dictionary.com and pass off the work as my own? Oooh, there's another one for you to look up, plagerism. Don't try and pass of work as your own when it isn't.

I am also an athiest, firm believer in science etc, but being an athiest doesn't equal intolerance. someone will belive whatever they want to believe, religion gives people a reason for believing, some people really need to believe there is someting to life, three is meaning to life, and religion gives that to them.

WORD mouse. There are a lot of crappy things about religion, and there are a lot of crappy things about science. there were some really unethical people who did things, all in the name of science, just like people do things in the name of god. NoHope, would you like me to cut and paste some things that, ooooh, the Nazi's did, should I refresh your memory about that happened at Nanking?
girltrouble
in nohope's defense, he isn't a troll. he's not, yes, he posts things to hear the sound of his voice, and he used to post whole interviews and articles instead of links without a word of his own (which is my pet peeve), but he does believe what he posts, and he does contribute to the lounge-- he always has. you may not agree with him, but he doesn't post things to start fights. it's where he comes from. i don't know where his recent anti-choice bullshit came from, or this bigotry towards religion, but i don't think he's looking for a fight, he's just calling 'em like he sees 'em.

that's how he's always been.

he's not a troll. imho, he's every bit the bustie any of us is.
pollystyrene
I think he's never been disrespectful until now, but I'd hesitate to consider him a "Bustie"- he has always had his own agenda coming here, rarely participates in existing threads and rarely posts his own thoughts. Some of what he's posted in the past has been interesting, but I don't know if I'd consider him to be a fully-contributing member. Not quite a troll, either.
missladyj
I think nohope is a total douche . I don't know why people even bother engaging with him. He doesn't give a shit about what people think nor is he interested in getting a perspective different than his own or engaging in intelligent dialouge with someone who's views differ from his own. but whatevs.
nohope
QUOTE(culturehandy @ Nov 11 2008, 01:15 PM) *


So, NoHope, why don't you get a fcuking clue and realize that science is religion.


Because science is not a religious it's a methodology. And it's effectiveness over other methodologies is empirically testable.

QUOTE(culturehandy @ Nov 11 2008, 01:15 PM) *
[color=#9932CC]Further, your panning of religion saying that it's garbled nonsense (I'm not picking word for word, but that's, the gist), is just as ignorant as the people you are putting down by living wholly for their religion.


I wish religion was only garbled nonsense. Btu if it was just, garbled nonsense, no one would believe it. No religion is faith in the inerrancy of garbled nonsense. It's the fact that the garbled nonsense is beyond falsification that makes religion so dangerous.

QUOTE(culturehandy @ Nov 11 2008, 01:15 PM) *
You are what we in Anthropology, like to call ethnocentric. Is that too big a word for you? Would you like me to cut and copy the entry from dictionary.com and pass off the work as my own? Oooh, there's another one for you to look up, plagerism. Don't try and pass of work as your own when it isn't.


ad hominem. There is nothing about my ethnicity which gives me a monopoly on science, reason and empiricism. I am fallowing the same philosophical path as free thinkers around the world whether they were Indian, Chinese, Greek, Roman, Persian you name it.... That accusation is simply with out merit, and insulting to all the non western traditions from whom we inherited our intellectual tradition. The west was in the dark ages while Chinese, Indians and Persians were forging their won atheist traditions and arguments against religion. They invented science wile we were still praying to god/gods to not give us water born diseases.

QUOTE(culturehandy @ Nov 11 2008, 01:15 PM) *
I am also an athiest, firm believer in science etc, but being an athiest doesn't equal intolerance. someone will belive whatever they want to believe, religion gives people a reason for believing, some people really need to believe there is someting to life, three is meaning to life, and religion gives that to them.


And being a atheist doesn't take meaning away, it gives meaning by focusing on what it real.

QUOTE(culturehandy @ Nov 11 2008, 01:15 PM) *
WORD mouse. There are a lot of crappy things about religion, and there are a lot of crappy things about science. there were some really unethical people who did things, all in the name of science, just like people do things in the name of god. NoHope, would you like me to cut and paste some things that, ooooh, the Nazi's did, should I refresh your memory about that happened at Nanking?


Again science is a methodology not a dogma.
nohope
QUOTE(mouse @ Nov 11 2008, 03:16 AM) *
nohope--islam isn't any more a "sacred cow" than any other religion. but as a human i have respect for other people's beliefs (and no, your "it's more probable therefore i'm right" argument still doesn't let you get off insulting every other belief, less probable or not. it's still a fucking BELIEF).


I have no respect for people who respect other peoples beliefs simply because they hold beliefs.

Which is why I respect you even if I think the evidence points to you being dead wrong. For example you don't respect my belief that some beliefs deserve no respect.

As for insults. It's an insult to call Islam a bunch of gibberish.... that's just a fact. Islam, Christianity, Hinduism, Dogmatic Marxism, Nazism, Judaism, Capitalism, Individualism.... it's all wishfully thinking and gibberish.

QUOTE(mouse @ Nov 11 2008, 03:16 AM) *
yes, there's a lot in islam that isn't nice. there's a lot in christianity that isn't nice either, and in most other major religions. there is also a lot that is very good, like most other major religions. i'm not, by any means, saying you can't criticize islam and if you actually read and understood my points instead of trying to put words in my mouth so you can have an argument about something i didn't actually say, you'd understand that. also, i don't appreciate being told to "get a clue". i'm actually educated and have studied comparative religion, so i do have a grasp on what i'm talking about. your insulting me is not going to suddenly make me "smarter" and agree with you, so please can it.

also, again with the twisting of my words: i didn't say religion *doesn't* play a part in things, i said it doesn't *have to*. so far, obama has only shown tolerance and intelligence on issues that the church usually gets salty about. when his religion actually comes into play with how he governs, then i'll complain. but so far, he hasn't shown any sign of going in that direction.

furthermore, letting one's religion guide one's actions doesn't have to result in trauma. look at jimmy carter--a deeply religious man, doing some of the best things out there--peace work, human rights work, humanitarian aid, etc. sure, one doesn't have to be religious to do those things, but who cares where the impetus comes from if good things are getting done.


Special pleading
nohope
QUOTE(girltrouble @ Nov 11 2008, 02:11 PM) *
i don't know where his recent anti-choice


I am not anti choice, have never been anti-choice and will never be anti-choice. I am pro-life though,I believe that killing a fetus is not moral, but I believe that putting a womens life in danger by outlawing abortion is even less moral. Dose that make sense. I believe that killing a fetus is wrong but women must have the legal right and opportunity to have safe leagel abortions. And because I don't think parents rights should come before those of children, I oppose parental noteficatoin.

QUOTE(girltrouble @ Nov 11 2008, 02:11 PM) *
"bigotry towards religion"


as for religion, 9/11, which hunting in Africa, Israeli Palestinian conflict, Mulime and Hindu fundamentalism and genocides, Christian terrorists in Africa. Oh and Sarah Palin and ilk have turned me into a biggot towards religion.

I don't think i covered all the killings did I mention Nazi Germany, and Marxism... and Capitalism... yeah those are also religions in my book.


QUOTE(girltrouble @ Nov 11 2008, 02:11 PM) *
he's not a troll. imho, he's every bit the bustie any of us is.[/color]


thanks for the vote of confidence I don't thin i deserve it.
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