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moxiegirl
Yeah Sexy!!!! I had the same spotting. Its no big deal at all. Congratulations!!!
loverufus
sandee - woohoo!!! congrats!!!

beck - i have constant backache. i had a bad back before the pregnancy and i remember an instructor of mine (while a student) saying that some women's backaches go away during pregnancy. no such luck for me. well, i shouldn't say constant - right now it's not bad. but when i go to get up - it'll take some time. turning over in bed is usually a slow process, too. i figure once the relaxin has done its thing and is gone, things might get a little better.

hope everyone else is doing well!
kiss_the_fiddler
sandee - welcome to the club!

beck - yup, backache sucks. sounds like you might be starting with sciatica. i've had sciatica for what seems like forever now. and other lower back pain as well. like loverufus, i have constant back pain. i went to physical therapy for it for a coupla months and that really helped. it's getting worse again now though and i don't want to go back to pt.

shinee is throwing me a baby shower this weekend. i'm excited!

i wanna post pics of our nursery but i'm tired and i'd probably do it wrong if i tried to do it now. i'll do it later.

hope all you preggie busties are well!

fiddler
beck
congratulations sandee!

i'm planning on starting swimming and preggo yoga to see if that helps with the backache, and just to generally get some exercise. i've done no exercise at all since i got pregnant apart from swimming when i was on holiday. i don't even run for the bus anymore!

have a fun baby shower fiddler!
sexysandee
Thank you... I am just so tired lately. I am at work at I find myself dozing off.

Unfortunately, when I told M about the baby he was happy and then he kind of vanished...
His loss.
beck
i'm sorry to hear that Sandee. you sound like you will do a great job though, and from your other posts it doesn't sound like he's in a place to play a positive role in your life at present. focus on taking good care of yourself and the baby, like you say, his loss.
thatgirlkelly
congrats sandee! sounds like M may need some time. was this pregnancy planned?

I find excercise to really help with all the pregnancy "symptoms". I've been doing regular yoga, but lying on my stomach is getting uncomfortable, so I may switch to prenatal soon. I don't ride my bike or do spin anymore, mostly the cardio comes from the eliptical, but just 30 minutes really helps with my energy. I say all this having not worked out since Wednesday of last week, but I sure can tell I havne't worked out, my body just lags. There really isn't any reason not to continue to workout during pregnancy, as long as we keep it short (30 minutes cardio) and keep the heart rate a bit lower than you would prepregnancy. They say, if you were used to it before pregnancy than you can continue through pregnancy....and they know everything ;-)

I remember someone talking about carpel tunnel or something like that?? I've been waking up with numbness in my arms and hands lately when I sleep on my side, totally sucks. Of course I've been grouting bath tile and putting in electrical switches and lights lately....we are close to completion on the inside of the house!!! My nursery color.....white. How imaginative is that? I think I'm going to keep it basic and redecorate when the little one has developed a personality and we can decorate together.

OMG I am rambling, pregnancy brain has set in big time, i can't remember words i mentioned just seconds before. Okay stopping now.
nakedmolerat
Hey girls, hope you are all doing well! Thatgirlkelly, your exercise routines sound awesome! I'm inspired! I haven't been doing nearly enough exercise... oh hell, who am I kidding? I haven't been doing ANY exercise, and I really need to start.

I know this is off topic, but I just came across an article about phthalates in sex toys and how they could possibly be dangerous for pregnant/breastfeeding women! Anyone heard of that? Apparently they're the chemicals put in rubber toys to give them a jelly texture, they make the toys smell like brand new shower curtains, and they may be dangerous... I posted about this in one of the sex forums, but I thought I'd bring it up here since it's relevant to pregnancy. It kind of freaked me out a little...
beck
hey molerat, i think phthalates are also something to look out for in baby products (bottle teats, teethers, toys and stuff), although i have to admit i can't remember quite why at the moment

aha - here is why...possible hormonal disruption and genital abnormalities

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phthalates

http://www.thedailygreen.com/environmental...alates-47020418

i would stick to silicone toys.

i was always fairly green but being pregnant is definitely making me more inclined to go for organic products, and i'm trying really hard to avoid my house being engulfed by a tide of plastic stuff. the potential environmental impact of having a baby seems pretty scary. am guiding the grandparents towards fabric/wooden toys and organic clothes...
loverufus
kelly - carpal tunnel is sometimes common during pregnancy. the swelling, etc, can be a cause. if you can find a good massage therapist in your area, he/she can provide some relief. i think someone on here though actually experienced it during pregnancy (or still is experiencing it?)...if i remember correctly.

i have been having lots of baby dreams lately. i dreamt the other night that i had a boy - and he was a big baby! (my husband and i had just watched a tv show in which a woman gave birth, and the "newborn" looked about 3 months old and could already hold his head up...) so, in my dream, my baby could already hold his head and looked about 3 months. it's the first time i dreamt i had a boy, though.

and last night - i dreamt i had a girl, and she too, was a really big baby. and she kept turning blue during the dream (she was also really smart and spoke with a british accent) and at one point told me she was "ill". it was a freaky dream. when i woke up, my husband told me he almost went into another room last night to sleep because my snoring was so bad - which means i was on my back...so of course, in my paranoid mind i worried that sleeping on my back cut off the blood supply to the baby - which resulted in dreaming that she was blue. eeep!

anyway...now i'm rambling. and procrastinating getting anything done around the house this morning...
moxiegirl
Just a thought on toys...while we may love the wood ones, etc., we are all for the plastic too...especially play structures! Especially the 2nd hand ones. An anology: Which car is more "green": A new Hybrid or a 5 year old Sedan? Yep, the Sedan. Maybe less gas mileage, but there is no more manufacturing involved for its "2nd" life. Think garage sale.
beck
oh yeah, second-hand is definitely my first choice - as you say, manufacturing new stuff, however 'green', has more impact on the environment. but if people like the grandparents are hell-bent on buying new stuff, i'm trying to keep those things as green as i can, and at least cloth/wooden products are derived from renewable resources rather than fossil fuels, and at the end of their life will have less impact.

seeing this little plastic robot bobbing around the Pacific maybe 40 years after it was chucked out made me think...http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7312777.stm
kiss_the_fiddler
Hi all you baby growing Busties!

We had our baby shower today! Shiny did an awesome job hosting. Lots of people commented about how great the food was. Shiny rocks! I had lots of fun and now I'm so tired I can't think.

I'm 33 plus 3 weeks today and I've been having some very slight pink spotting since Tues. Doc isn't worried about it. Today though, the spotting has been more. Less pink, more red. I get it when I strain (as if to have a BM). Anyone have experience with spotting upon straining? It's sorta worrying to me. I don't think it's heavy enough to call the doc but it's still worrisome.

I'm sore and tired and going back to bed. Hope you're all well!

fiddler
pinkmartyr
fiddler, about the pinkish spotting when straining...
you are much further along than me, so i automatically consider you more qualified to answer any pregnancy related questions, however, this happened to me around 12 weeks. i had just had a pelvic exam, including a pap, at my first OB visit. everytime i had a BM for about a week, there was pinkish spotting. the way i figured it, the cervix is so engorged with blood when pregnant, plus it had been irritated by the pap, and then pushed upon while straining, that the pinkish spotting was inevitable.
if the spotting continues to be worrisome to you tomorrow, i'd call the doctor, or maybe one of the triage nurses at your practice. you're almost "full term," right, where your boy's lungs and everything are mature? i am only knowledgeable about weeks 1-21, however, so someone correct me if i'm wrong! at any rate, good luck to you! i bet you are ok, but i know that peace of mind would be great in your final weeks before delivery.

beck, i bought some of the body shop body butter you recommended!
xLOVELY
You all seem to know a lot about being pregnant and I didn't know where else to post, so here I go!

What is the likelihood that I am pregnant?
My boyfriend and I began making love for the first time last week. We did it about 4 times, and each time we used spermicide Trojan condoms. He pre-cums a lot but he never ejaculated inside of me, we also took the condom off so he could do it some other way. I am still scared though that there could of been a tear in the condom, even though I checked frequently. Before he touched me or before we even put the condom on we wiped everything down with Pampers Baby Wipes as well. Could I be pregnant or am I just being super paranoid =\? I'm planning on going on the pill, though we rarely have sex. I just like to be safe. My period is also supposed to come on the 15th of this month. When can I take a pregnancy test?
kiss_the_fiddler
lovely, your timing isn't very good for trying NOT to become pregnant. healthy sperm can live inside your body for several days and it sounds to me like you just ovulated or are now. BUT, you used spermicide AND condoms. I think that you were well protected and will probably not become pregnant from DTD last week. If you're VERY worried about it, seek out emergency birth control. The earliest that an over the counter pregnancy test can detect a pregnancy is just a coupla days before your expected period.

For future reference, it might help you to learn about your cycle so you can know when you ovulate and avoid sex during that time. Also, getting on the pill can't hurt.

So, that's my two cents worth. Keep us posted.

fiddler
xLOVELY
Thank you very much fiddler, made me feel a lot better smile.gif. I'll tell you guys what happens next, and good luck with your little ones!
beck
QUOTE(xLOVELY @ Jun 1 2008, 07:20 PM) *
You all seem to know a lot about being pregnant and I didn't know where else to post, so here I go!

What is the likelihood that I am pregnant?
My boyfriend and I began making love for the first time last week. We did it about 4 times, and each time we used spermicide Trojan condoms. He pre-cums a lot but he never ejaculated inside of me, we also took the condom off so he could do it some other way. I am still scared though that there could of been a tear in the condom, even though I checked frequently. Before he touched me or before we even put the condom on we wiped everything down with Pampers Baby Wipes as well. Could I be pregnant or am I just being super paranoid =\? I'm planning on going on the pill, though we rarely have sex. I just like to be safe. My period is also supposed to come on the 15th of this month. When can I take a pregnancy test?


just to add my 2 cents, lovely, remember that pre-cum also contains sperm so you shouldn't have any contact with that if you don't want to risk pregnancy. put the condom on right at the beginning and leave it on till you're done.
moxiegirl
fiddler- that can be a host of things that late in a pregnancy...mucous plug starting to dislodge, random leaking as you begin very early dialation, abrasion after sex (any itercourse type), etc. If you continue to bleed for another day or so, call the doc. It could also be a hemmroid or anal tear that's bleeding a bit. Hell, sorry for the graphic-ness, but pregnancy ain't all sugar and butterflies!

Fiddler...what swag did the shower bring?
thatgirlkelly
when does the sugar and butterfly part start? tongue.gif


Bought maternity tops this weeks and broke into the Fat Pants stash this week. Feels so much better. Going in the 20 week scan on thursday....though I think it's actually 19 weeks for me...on the other hand at 15 weeks they thought she looked about a week older than I thought, so we shall see.

Also, I think I'm feeling the baby move, but it's really weird feeling. I can't be certain. some times if seem too high up to be the baby. When did you all KNOW you felt the baby move?
moxiegirl
I KNOW at 17 weeks. THOUGHT at 16. The little buggers BOUNCE like mexican jumping beans. Unless it feels like your heart is racing, anything below the rib cage is likely the bebe.
pinkmartyr
kelly, i *thought* i felt the baby move during the 16th week, and i *knew* around the 18th week. very similar to moxie. at 20 weeks, i was able to feel him move throughout the day, and figure out which times of day he generally seems to be active and at rest.

fiddler, how are you feeling?
falljackets
hi mamas!

well, looks like i'll be joining this club again for a while.

yup. unplanned pregnancy here. confirmed by home test saturday and i have an appointment tomorrow with a new ob. i decided i didn't want to go to the same one that delivered jackaroo. i just felt a little like cattle last time. and not just because i'd gained 70 lbs!! smile.gif

anyway, just saying hi. i'm sleepy and i'd better take advantage of jackaroo being asleep too.

thinking of you all! i've continued to lurk in here since delivering jman, but never dreamed i'd be back here so soon.

eeep!
kiss_the_fiddler
fj - welcome back! i remember your baby was born not too long before shiny had shinybaby. how old is your jackaroo now?

pink - i'm doing alright. spotting has stopped. none today at all. whew. i'm sitting here now being totally entertained by the his antics from inside my belly. i think that's the coolest thing ever!

fiddler
beck
welcome back fj! i was lurking in this thread while you were having jackaroo, great to see you here again, even if it was a little sooner than you expected!

ETA: kelly, i felt a proper kick at 18 weeks, just below my belly button. before that, i had felt a kind of bubbling sensation pretty early on (like 13 or 14 weeks) and very low down, not sure if it was baby or not at that point (although i don't remember having ever felt it before being pregnant either). it was like a stream of little bubbles.

I haven't really noticed a pattern to the kicking but maybe i'm not paying enough attention - i've felt it most when bored on long train journeys which makes me think i just don't notice as much when i'm busy at the office.
anoushh
Kelly, there was some weirdness with my dates at first (turns out I was right all along!) which messes a tinyy bit with my memory, but I knew it was the baby moving somewhere between 18 and 19 weeks.

FJ--I wish you the best!

Fiddler, I think Mox's excellent post pretty much covered it all.

(And sugar and butterflies for me was in recollection, rather than in the moment. I didn't love being pregnant--I found it weirder than expected--but I miss it in retrospect.)
xLOVELY
Update!

For the past 5 days I've had an acute case of tonsillitis, which was very painful.
This morning however, I woke up and I felt this odd striking cramp in my lower abdomen and thought maybe I had to go to the bathroom...? I also felt semi-nauseous. I tried to use the restroom but couldn't, (if you catch my drift..) so I went downstairs to take some Pepto Bismol to ease the upset stomach. About 5 minutes later I threw it right back up.

Is this just because I'm sick or could this be the beginning of morning sickness? I would be about three weeks into the pregnancy.

fiddler - haha boys are feisty when they're in there.
beck
QUOTE(xLOVELY @ Jun 4 2008, 03:03 PM) *
Update!

For the past 5 days I've had an acute case of tonsillitis, which was very painful.
This morning however, I woke up and I felt this odd striking cramp in my lower abdomen and thought maybe I had to go to the bathroom...? I also felt semi-nauseous. I tried to use the restroom but couldn't, (if you catch my drift..) so I went downstairs to take some Pepto Bismol to ease the upset stomach. About 5 minutes later I threw it right back up.

Is this just because I'm sick or could this be the beginning of morning sickness? I would be about three weeks into the pregnancy.

fiddler - haha boys are feisty when they're in there.


Hi lovely. It sounds both fairly unlikely that you're pregnant, and a bit soon to be having symptoms, from the dates you said, although i know it happens for some people. I am a bit unclear from your original post whether you used a condom correctly though (you mention taking it off at one point?). Some tests are very sensitive and can be used from 4 days before your period is due, but they are less accurate. You are better off waiting and testing if your period is late. Good luck!
thatgirlkelly
Hey XLovely sounds like you have a nasty bug of some kind. It's a bit early for the morning sickness to kick in.

I think the biggest think you need to hear right now is Don't Freak Out. Easy to say, hard to do, I know. Wait until your period is due. If it doesn't show, up...then you can freak out. But even then it sounds as if you are stressing pretty hard about the possibility of being preggers, and you are sick, so that might muck with your cycle.

Deep breaths, we are all routing for you!
moxiegirl
Trying not to get the excited/dissapointment trip going... how long past the MRG date did you ladies wait to test? I'm sore, but late by a day...and the sore could be lots of stuff, so its hard to pin down. Trying mostly to avoid the self-embarrassment of last month, when I bled ONTO the peestick. Sheesh.
xLOVELY
haha moxie, don't be embarassed, that's pretty funny. still, good luck. biggrin.gif

kelly & beck -

the entire time he was inside of me we had a condom on. He took it off after he was, but we never did it when there wasn't a condom on. The only possibility I could be pregnant could be from pre-ejaculation, which he does a lot sad.gif. I'm probably just freaking out and being sick is not going to help any more, huh.

THEN AGAIN... I'm always extremely UNLUCKY and my body is absolutely insane, it reacts in the weirdest ways to things.

As much as I love children, and the thought of having one, I'm just not ready for one, which is why I always refrained from having sex to begin with... until I met the love of my life of course smile.gif. But, I wish all of you the best of luck and thanks for the support. Keep us updated with your situations as well!
thatgirlkelly
QUOTE(moxiegirl @ Jun 4 2008, 09:39 AM) *
Trying not to get the excited/dissapointment trip going... how long past the MRG date did you ladies wait to test? I'm sore, but late by a day...and the sore could be lots of stuff, so its hard to pin down. Trying mostly to avoid the self-embarrassment of last month, when I bled ONTO the peestick. Sheesh.


I expect you to march yourself into the bathroom and pee on a stick right this moment. The suspense is killing me!!!

I peed on sticks about 7 days prior to the start of my period...every single day, then every week for eight weeks after the first positive test...'cause I'm crazy like that. I am no role model.
beck
QUOTE(moxiegirl @ Jun 4 2008, 05:39 PM) *
Trying not to get the excited/dissapointment trip going... how long past the MRG date did you ladies wait to test? I'm sore, but late by a day...and the sore could be lots of stuff, so its hard to pin down. Trying mostly to avoid the self-embarrassment of last month, when I bled ONTO the peestick. Sheesh.


moxie, i tested on the day MRG was due (i think i managed to hold out until the evening) and every day after that for about 4 days just to see the line getting darker! it was almost imperceptible that first day unless you held the stick at a specific angle! good luck smile.gif
moxiegirl
Can I come to play for real? 2 Preggo positives! Trying not to get toooo excited, cause lots can still go wrong. But...for now, i'm here! smile.gif
falljackets
SQUEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!

YES!!!!!!!!!

moxie, i wasn't gonna say anything, but i just KNEW it!! how awesome! i've been stalking this thread waiting for you to pop in this morning.

congratulations!!!!

smile.gif
moxiegirl
Well, here's hoping for us both that the wee cells stick! WHen is your doc appt? And, how is the J-man??
thatgirlkelly
go Moxie, go Moxie, go Moxie! Congrats! Keeping fingers and toes crossed.

Heading for 20 week scan, here's to hoping all it well...oh check this out, my doctor broke up with me! He's quiting OB practice and doing GYN only. I'm totally freaked out. I'm meeting a new doc today, hopefully she will work out. She sounds kind of....sweet, which I'm not sure I want. I prefer a badass if you know what I mean.
falljackets
good luck, kelly! i hope the scan and the new doc are great!

thanks for all the congrats, mamas! didn't mean to skip over them earlier. i was just overcome when i saw moxie's news.

moxie, jman is donig fantastic. he's finally settling in with daycare well. he is actually playing with the other kids when i go to pick him up in the afternoons. it's so nice to see. sure beats the teary-face he was giving me the first couple of weeks. makes me feel much less guilty. i have a scan on monday at 11am. here's hoping for sticky little wobbly baby cells!!
moxiegirl
I'm tempted to make up a "problem" if none surfaces, to get a scan! I could date this precisecly, but still. Just b/c i had so many issues with moxette, that i'm trying to ward off the scary.

I'm glad J-man is doing great in daycare! Moxette still has days where she gets a bit weapy when I pick her up, but mostly is play and happiness. We also realzied that she will be in the "official" preschool price category once new bebe comes around. Good for all. Did I tell you guys my baby brother is also having a baby??? I can't wait to tell him about me! smile.gif He was sesriously bummed last month when they shared that I wasn't pregnant also. smile.gif
kiss_the_fiddler
Woo-hoo, moxie! Welcome back!

fj and kelly - here's to seeing exactly what you want in your scans. KUP.

fiddler
(who is tired and heading for a nap!)
thatgirlkelly
hello ladies,
the scan seemed fine, they want me back in a month because girlie was breach with her legs flung over her head (a girl after my own heat) such that the tech could not see the heart as well as he liked. the parts are all there though.

the doctor seemed fine. I don't have the same connection with her as with my other doc, but she did give me a prescription for some massages....can't be all bad.

apparently the docs in the practice I'm with deliver about 70% of their patients babies, which is pretty high. I am thinking of switching to a midwife...or using a doula. any one here considering or use a doula previously?
beck
CONGRATULATIONS MOXIE! ~~~~~~~tons of sticky baby vibes to you and FJ~~~~~~~~~~~

and glad the scan went well kelly. i am planning on hiring a doula for my birth. all being well i would like a homebirth, so it will be attended by a midwife rather than a doctor, but i would like a doula as well as, the midwife service can vary here (you don't generally get to choose which one attends your birth, it depends who is available, so there's no guarantee that they will be nice!) and they don't tend to come out until you are fairly far along, and i don't know if i will want more support than that. the doula i have found will also visit afterwards which i like the idea of, and she offers help with breastfeeding. i found this site useful Doula UK

I also remember that anoussh had a very positive experience with a doula, if you look a few pages back.

not seen blanche round these parts for a while, wonder how she's getting on?
moxiegirl
My SIL had a doula and can't speak highly enough of the experience. I suspect, (as she is also preggo) that with her #2, the same woman will be called. Actuallly, everyone I've spoken to has been thrilled with the doula experience.

pinkmartyr
blanche, i'm psyched that you are going to share your birth story with us!!

fiddler, glad the spotting went away.

moxie and falljackets, congrats and lots of good vibes!!! i'm so glad for both of you.

i had my 5 month check up. the baby seems to be doing well, he was amusingly moving away from the doppler when the doctor was trying to hear his heartbeat! we'd hear a little bit, then he'd move. this happened three times before she pinned him down! funny thing was- when he was moving around, i couldn't feel that movement... so i think i can feel some of his movements, but not necessarily all of them, at least in this point of pregnancy. but, over the past few days, he has been very, very busy, and i've been able to feel a lot of it!

the un-amusing news is that i gained 9lbs over the past 4 weeks. the doctor thinks that some of it might be swelling/water retention (its heat-advisory hot in my area), but i am shocked and appalled by 9lbs. she mentioned to cut carbs (white bread, white potatoes, white rice) and watch the sweets, as well as to drink plenty of water. the 9lbs totally freaks me out because up til this point, i had only gained 2 lbs, total. i've got to lose some of this- the doctor only wants me to gain a total of 12, and the baby isn't even a pound yet.



xLOVELY
congrats moxie!
beck
OMG just saw this on another pg/baby website:

'I have 9 children. Ashleigh, Taylor, Flynn, Danielle, and Tiffany. (those are my girls) Hayden, Sam, Thomas, and Charlie. Now I'm expecting triplets. Any ideas? I'm run out.'

blink.gif
moxiegirl
Yeah, get your tubes tied.

So, I know this is #2, so I should be an expert...but as they say, every pregnancy is different. I'm having light cramping, but no spotting. Normal? Concern? Hmmm... my mom reassures me this is normal, as everything is tightening and vascularizing, etc. Wondering what you all expreienced early on. Scheduled my 8-week scan and bloodwork for July 1. Argh...i hate waiting. Just want to know if its all ok or not.
kiss_the_fiddler
i second mox on this one. get fixed already. gees . . .

and yup, i think that your symptoms moxie, are normal for early pg. early on, i experienced very light pink spotting (before bfp). then i had a sore back like i get before my period that lasted for weeks. i had my first scan at 6 weeks and another at 8 weeks. it was a relief to me because at 6 weeks, we could already see the heart beat! it was the coolest thing ever! the waiting is hard though, huh? let's see, what were my other sxs . . . i had to pee often and i had a hormone headache often. smells intensified for me and i was tired more at first. didn't start puking for several weeks though. whew. so, i think don't worry. sit back and ride it out. july 1 will get here. if you suspect a problem sooner, go in sooner. best of luck!

fiddler
moxiegirl
thanks. i'm sure it is just the body adjusting and stretching out. No puking yet, thank goddess. I am STARVING and wasted tired all the time....and the peeing! I'm like a freaking open tap.

Thanks again!
nakedmolerat
QUOTE(pinkmartyr @ Jun 7 2008, 12:50 PM) *
the un-amusing news is that i gained 9lbs over the past 4 weeks. the doctor thinks that some of it might be swelling/water retention (its heat-advisory hot in my area), but i am shocked and appalled by 9lbs. she mentioned to cut carbs (white bread, white potatoes, white rice) and watch the sweets, as well as to drink plenty of water. the 9lbs totally freaks me out because up til this point, i had only gained 2 lbs, total. i've got to lose some of this- the doctor only wants me to gain a total of 12, and the baby isn't even a pound yet.


Awww pinkmartyr, don't be so hard on yourself! there will be plenty of time to lose it later, and it probably is water retention. it's never safe to lose weight when you're pregnant, even though it's tempting. i'm 22 weeks also and i've gained 13 pounds. i don't understand how you're only supposed to gain 12 pounds total... i have a breakdown of approximate weight gain and that seems unreasonable:

baby 7.5 lbs
placenta 1.5 lbs
amniotic fluid 2lbs
uterine enlargement 2 pounds
breast tissue 2 lbs
maternal blood volume increase 4 lbs
fluids in maternal tissue 4 lbs
fat stores 7 lbs

even if you don't gain the fat stores, everything else still adds up to 23 lbs average!!!
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